A different take on Master Scuba Diver

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Well how can it? As someone with a moderate amount of experience in (non-diving) training design and delivery, I’d only really class myself as competent at a skill when I can comfortably apply it outside of the training environment. As written elsewhere, specialty courses teach and validate skills, but ‘competence’ in them only comes through experience and using them. Eg on my dry suit course my three training dives taught me how to use a dry suit, but it was my subsequent four dry suit recreational dives where I became ‘competent’ in a range of conditions. Similarly my wreck diving specialty course with four dives taught and validated a set of skills but it’ll only really be doing it for real next month on a limited penetration dive on Zenobia that I’ll become ‘competent’. I don’t have a problem with that. I think it’s sensible.

Please don't take that as a criticism of you as you didn't create this mediocre system. It is a criticism of every instructor that perpetuates it (like those who liked/bullseyed your response).

It unfortunately is a minority of instructors who ensure students reach a level of competency/proficiency. That doesn't mean they won't continue to improve (as we all should strive to continue to improve) but rather they don't need additional correction to be competent.

The definition of mastery is sometimes interpreted as "student didn't drown while performing skill that looked like interpretive dance." Far too often instructors check off boxes.

Again, @Leatherboot69 , I'm not criticizing you, but rather instructors who should do us all a favor and stop teaching like the people who liked/bullseyed your comment.

For you, I'd only suggest taking fundies to see the difference quality makes. Don't take my word for it, see for yourself. Please remember, it is a recreational skills course.

And good luck.

 

[Leatherboot69]

I think you should meet a minimum of competency before being signed off for an activity.

In this case, are you just saying that you are not proficient, i.e. you are just aiming higher?

I think we are discussing semantics. Passing a specialty course requires a minimum level of competency/proficiency. Fully acquiring a skill and becoming fully competent happens after a course and some real world practice. We’re just using different words

 

[Leatherboot69]

I agree. Also gets me to one of my pet peeves. How competent one gets on scuba IMHO has a lot to do with one's "comfortability" in water to begin with. Scuba skills aren't rocket science. Accepting people into OW courses who have very little water experience or in some cases are even afraid of the water or at least going below the surface-- is a mistake.

Perhaps. But where should people start if they’re scared of going under water but want to try scuba? I’ve been watching my girlfriend go through her OW confined water dives (literally - I’ve been training in the same pool whilst she does her pool dives so I can see how she’s getting on, provide moral support and understand any weaknesses as we’ll be dive buddies next month if she passes). She was scared of diving and claustrophobic before she started but she’s had a patient instructor whom I dived with first to ‘check him out’, and three pool dives in she’s getting the hang of it; she also found that of the four students that one of the others was the most anxious. From what I can see she’ll pass her OW and be able to come and do some easy diving with me just fine. Will she be joining me wreck diving at 25m in low visibility and cold water? No, but she will be joining me at 8m in tropical seas to look at fish, and so she doesn’t really need anything apart from OW. We’ve already decided that she doesn’t want to do AOW or anything else, when all she wants to do is ‘look at pretty fish and try something new.’

The confined water dives are there to get new divers comfortable with breathing underwater (amongst other skills). According to this advice she should never have been allowed to start, with which, respectfully, I disagree. I think it’s important not to forget what it’s like to be a beginner, and that not everybody has the same starting point or the same ambitions for their diving (ie to be the most highly skilled diver possible and to do fundies). Scuba needs to be welcoming or it’ll die out.

 

[tursiops]

gain, @Leatherboot69 , I'm not criticizing you, but rather instructors who should do us all a favor and stop teaching like the people who liked/bullseyed your comment.

You have no idea how I teach, so why do you criticize me like this? Do you enjoy being mean and rude?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Accepting people into OW courses who have very little water experience or in some cases are even afraid of the water or at least going below the surface-- is a mistake.

I disagree. The open water course needs to be longer. I would start with comfort in the water and snorkeling. I do require to have some swimming skills however.

Placing students on their knees and have them blow bubbles is inefficient

 

[TMHeimer]

Perhaps. But where should people start if they’re scared of going under water but want to try scuba? I’ve been watching my girlfriend go through her OW confined water dives (literally - I’ve been training in the same pool whilst she does her pool dives so I can see how she’s getting on, provide moral support and understand any weaknesses as we’ll be dive buddies next month if she passes). She was scared of diving and claustrophobic before she started but she’s had a patient instructor whom I dived with first to ‘check him out’, and three pool dives in she’s getting the hang of it; she also found that of the four students that one of the others was the most anxious. From what I can see she’ll pass her OW and be able to come and do some easy diving with me just fine. Will she be joining me wreck diving at 25m in low visibility and cold water? No, but she will be joining me at 8m in tropical seas to look at fish, and so she doesn’t really need anything apart from OW. We’ve already decided that she doesn’t want to do AOW or anything else, when all she wants to do is ‘look at pretty fish and try something new.’

The confined water dives are there to get new divers comfortable with breathing underwater (amongst other skills). According to this advice she should never have been allowed to start, with which, respectfully, I disagree. I think it’s important not to forget what it’s like to be a beginner, and that not everybody has the same starting point or the same ambitions for their diving (ie to be the most highly skilled diver possible and to do fundies). Scuba needs to be welcoming or it’ll die out.

Yes I see your point. It can be done with work and a good instructor. I've seen a number of OW students taking the course just waiting to become a statistic. Such as -- barely got through the 200 metre swim without a heart attack. In 1999 (6 years before I got OW) I was on a cruise (week before the Millenium) with my wife & kids and saw what I now know was a Discover Scuba course in the pool on deck. I asked what's that about-- heard you get an hour or so training then scuba dive. I thought "man, seems not much, I think I'll do the snorkel tour". And I had been snorkeling (free diving to 15'), body surfing, the whole schmeer since age 15.

Where should people start if they want to do scuba and have no "water" experience or even a fear of water? How about swim lessons-- learning a proper stroke (I know swimming is only a distant cousin to scuba and many poor swimmers can scuba dive fine). Maybe dive down to the deep end of a swimming pool? Maybe spend some time riding the waves in the ocean?
My wife can do all that but doesn't dive due to claustrophobia-- not afraid of being underwater, it's the tight fit of my wetsuit that signals to her NO. I mean she has a serious problem with that and can't watch certain
stuff on TV.
Yes, it can be done by everybody-- that was what PADI put forward in the '70s. But should scuba be the FIRST step? You have a fear of flying so you parachute out of a plane?
I've seen that those who are comfortable in water to begin with in the OW course tend to just zip though the skills. While someone else can't seem to figure out how to breathe through their mouth with the mask off. That's the difference.

 

[Bob DBF]

You have a fear of flying so you parachute out of a plane?

Well, it is the fastest way out of the plane.

 

[BlueTrin]

I think we are discussing semantics. Passing a specialty course requires a minimum level of competency/proficiency. Fully acquiring a skill and becoming fully competent happens after a course and some real world practice. We’re just using different words

Yes that was my point, you were not disagreeing with @wetb4igetinthewater : you are just using different semantics.

 

[Leatherboot69]

Yes I see your point. It can be done with work and a good instructor. I've seen a number of OW students taking the course just waiting to become a statistic. Such as -- barely got through the 200 metre swim without a heart attack. In 1999 (6 years before I got OW) I was on a cruise (week before the Millenium) with my wife & kids and saw what I now know was a Discover Scuba course in the pool on deck. I asked what's that about-- heard you get an hour or so training then scuba dive. I thought "man, seems not much, I think I'll do the snorkel tour". And I had been snorkeling (free diving to 15'), body surfing, the whole schmeer since age 15.

Where should people start if they want to do scuba and have no "water" experience or even a fear of water? How about swim lessons-- learning a proper stroke (I know swimming is only a distant cousin to scuba and many poor swimmers can scuba dive fine). Maybe dive down to the deep end of a swimming pool? Maybe spend some time riding the waves in the ocean?
My wife can do all that but doesn't dive due to claustrophobia-- not afraid of being underwater, it's the tight fit of my wetsuit that signals to her NO. I mean she has a serious problem with that and can't watch certain
stuff on TV.
Yes, it can be done by everybody-- that was what PADI put forward in the '70s. But should scuba be the FIRST step? You have a fear of flying so you parachute out of a plane?
I've seen that those who are comfortable in water to begin with in the OW course tend to just zip though the skills. While someone else can't seem to figure out how to breathe through their mouth with the mask off. That's the difference.

We did a Discover Scuba Dive earlier this summer, which was what prompted me to get back into diving (having got to RD and then not dived for several years) and my girlfriend to do her OW. It wasn’t much training at all. I think it felt safe though-we were taught some minimum safety skills (mask clearance, a few other things) and we dived slowly along a shore reef at about 4m along an out and back route for half an hour, two of us and a DM. My gf didn’t know how to fin so spent a lot of time trying to ‘walk’ in mid-water, and she bolted for the surface at one point. From a safety perspective I wasn’t concerned because we were (deliberately) so shallow. I’d be interested to hear yours and others’ opinions though, although do bear in mind it was a DSD and nothing more. Subsequently she’s found her OW course and the confined water dives have ‘worked’ for her in building her confidence, as someone who didn’t take to it naturally (like a duck to water lol). Of course, it’s only one anecdote though.

There’s also the factor that she needs to reach required standards and demonstrate certain skills in order to pass, and the school we have been using seems to be pretty professional in that and other regards. When I did my Deep specialty last weekend with the same school, I understood that although I only had to reach a basic standard, I wouldn’t get a ‘hospital pass’. Again, I know this is one anecdote and one school.

 

[BoltSnap]

@Leatherboot69 , I'm not criticizing you, but rather instructors who should do us all a favor and stop teaching like the people who liked/bullseyed your comment.

You have no idea how I teach, so why do you criticize me like this? Do you enjoy being mean and rude?

He ran out of people to insult and fight with, he is now chasing people who register a reaction on a post without any understanding or a clue on their backgrounds or what they do or think. Simple and clear examples of bullying and character assassination that are totally uncalled for nor provoked. Very low indeed.

He pretty soon will be fighting with his own shadow after he runs out of people to insult and fight with.