A deceptively easy way to die

[IVC]

Last summer I swam under a diving board - or does it actually have to touch the water to present this black or white danger?

Heh, if it was Rosie O'Donnell's pool you might have been in more danger than you realized.

 

[MikeT73]

I think you would do well to rather enquire and learn a bit about the person behind the post before you start making sneering remarks about their experience, personality and opinion, it may serve you well one day.

Nah, I'm good. Your ill-informed and irresponsible comment was enough to make a sound decision.

 

[kelemvor]

Because nuance is just too much for the internet. Last summer I swam under a diving board - or does it actually have to touch the water to present this black or white danger?

Lucky for you, there's a class where you can learn that and other things. Until you take such a class, you have to decide for yourself what is dangerous and what is not.

I didn't see any diving boards in the video that this thread is about, so......


I will go back to what I said early in this thread. PADY paid a lot of money to determine that the dangers of diving are a huge selling point. So, that should mean if you play this video in classes, or even in your shop outside of classes it will help you attract more divers! This is a FREE promotional video that will likely help your shop make money.. and it costs you NOTHING! How great is that?

 

[widget]

I have no idea what you're reading, but nowhere did I say or insinuate what you just claimed I said.

What's a "worst-case" scenario? Some newly certified diver going out into a situation they have no business being in because a newly-certified "dive pro" assures them it'll be OK? That's how we lose people here every year. OK, you can blow off those few who die as inconsequential, because they're a tiny minority of divers. But the majority of people who get certified ... roughly three out of every four ... drop out of scuba within a year of their initial certification. There are a number of reasons for that ... one of the significant reasons is that they do something to scare themselves out of diving ... something they came out of their initial training patently unqualified to manage or even imagine. Most simply learn to rely on someone else to "keep them safe", which is well and good I suppose if you're diving in a tropical tourist destination where the dive guides are used to seeing people who dive at that level, and are prepared to manage them. They only lose a few per year in places like Cozumel, and what the heck ... there's plenty more where they came from. So let's not "scare" these people before they go spend their money supporting the industry. Yeah ... that's real sustainable. I get it that those who "market" scuba want to get them in, and get their money before they drop out and go find something more comfortable to do with their recreational dollars. But that approach doesn't work well where I live and teach. There's memorials on way too many dive sites here ... mostly for fairly inexperienced people who died out of ignorance, or because their instructor de-emphasized the risks in order to not scare them away. And that's the problem ... if you don't emphasize the risks, there will always be those who think they're not important. That's why you see so many divers not even bothering to follow things they do cover in their basic training ... like buddy checks ... because they had instructors or dive buddies who downplayed the risks, citing the high percentage of divers who "don't die" every year.

Yeah, the reality is that we can die in other, more commonplace ways. But the question is why do things that increase the probability of it? Why engage in risky behavior ... either because you don't know any better, or because you don't believe that the risks really apply to you? That's the attitude that gets engendered by those who believe we shouldn't talk about it.

Stick your head in the sand, if that's what makes you happy. Pretend that the risks aren't real, or that the statistics don't bear out that emphasizing them aren't worthwhile. But people aren't statistics ... every single one of them matters. And I won't be a part of that approach to marketing the scuba industry ... not only because of the safety aspects, but because I believe it's ultimately creating more drop-outs than talking about the risks will. The only difference is that before they drop out, they'll get certified. They may even take another con-ed class or two, because that's why instructors are taught to upsell those classes before the current one is even completed. Maybe they'll go on a trip or two. But sooner or later, they'll do something that'll scare the crap out of them, because they were taught to put themselves into that position by someone who believes as you do that talking about the risks of scuba is bad for business. And that will be the last time they dive, whether they survive the experience or not.

That's not my idea of a good time ... and having a good time, ultimately, is why we all dive. I want my students going into it with their eyes open. I want those who will be inclined to drop out to do so before they invest thousands in scuba classes and equipment ... because selling scuba gear and certifications is not my priority, keeping my students alive and having fun is. And don't mistake what I'm saying here ... it CAN be engaged in with a reasonable degree of safety. But you must know the risks, and how to prepare for them, before you can really do that. And that means having a frank discussion about what those risks are, how to avoid them, and what to do if you can't avoid them.

I have never said that "only I can do this well". There are thousands of highly qualified instructors out there ... I know several personally just in my area. Many of them are engaging in this conversation, and trying to present the same perspective I am ... but you're blowing them and me off because you don't agree with what we're saying.

The incident I described yesterday is, sadly, not the "worst case". But it is a good example of a dive professional who is ... whether he means to or not ... teaching his students to dive dangerously, to not consider or prepare for an acceptable level of risks. He will ... I don't doubt ... be very successful at selling them the next class, and probably thousands of dollars in equipment purchases. And the industry will view him as being a successful dive professional. But over the course of the next few years, the chances of his former students dropping out or finding themselves the victims of a diving accident will be, statistically, much higher than mine ... or any number of those professionals who train their students how to avoid the risks, rather than engage in them. A couple years ago I went through my student folders from the past decade or so ... and I can account for about 80% of my students still being active divers. What do you suppose the typical drop-out rate is in our industry? How would you account for the difference? Who do you suppose is really representing the interests of the industry better ... the instructor who churns out a high number of certs, or the one who is more selective but manages to help train students who will be comfortable enough with the activity to keep doing it for years to come?

I think those of you who say "don't talk about it" are kidding yourselves ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added December 8th, 2015 at 09:02 AM ----------



... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Okay, its cool.

I see it as pointless and draining to continue with this, so I am just bowing out.

 

[archer1960]

Well-said, IVC!

 

[oya]

Because nuance is just too much for the internet.

I've been saying this for years, "Steve Lewis lacks nuance!" I've said.

 

[kr2y5]

See, this is the internet. I said the video was good in direct response, and two posts later, that's gone.

To be fair, the way you wrote it could be perceived as not genuine. Note I'm not saying it was insincere, just that it could be perceived as such in the absence of nonverbal clues, and that makes it hard to respond to. Knowing that many folks here are on a short fuse, knee-jerk reactions are common, and subtle expressions can be easily misconstrued, it is best to avoid sarcasm and err on the side of clarity.

But that aside, you've captured the gist of my concern: is there a trade-off between the negative tenor of messaging and forum-based discussion/instruction and the reaction of divers coming to the Basic forum. I started on the forum with something over a hundred dives, mostly San Fran and SoCal coastal diving, mostly solo (hunting lobster and fish) with buddies, and absolutely loved diving, even here. After a few weeks on the forum I was struck by how negative the tone so often was, how identifiable that was with certain members, how contemptuous so many of the self-professed experts were, (...). More like scare-mongering than honest discussion. Not all threads or posts of course. Am I the only one who reacts that way?

Not at all. When it comes to patronizing, belittling, and contemptuous tone, spouting the same blanket advice regardless of context, etc., many people, myself included, react the same way. This being said, maybe it helps to consider a few factors. First, perhaps those of us who respond this way simply don't know how to do it any differently. We all have character flaws and soft skills deficiencies. We might as well be more forgiving of flaws in others, and try to look behind the long and boring rant to recognize the true intention. I think in most cases, you are dealing with a mixture of posturing and genuine concern.

Second, even if a reply is directed at you, there are (or will be) hundreds of others reading this thread, and many folks won't read carefully. People, who don't read carefully, and on whom subtlety is lost, could be drawing all sorts of general conclusions from specific statements. In that sense, jumping to conclusions and overreacting, is maybe not as much as justified, but definitely somewhat understandable.

and how wholely inadequate the specific elaboration of risk was

For instance, I think here the question is not so much whether your specific experience was safe, but on what basis you concluded that it was safe, and whether you or someone else can apply the exact same thought process in an unrelated situation...

Anyway, I've been in caves hundreds of times,

...this being a prime example. Anyone reading this statement will conclude that you deemed your specific experience was safe on the basis of not having an incident so far. Did you mean that the lack of incidents can be a reliable predictor of something being safe in general? Is that a universal rule? If this is not what you meant, you should make it clear. The responsibility to communicate clearly is on you.

Deceptively easy? Most adults would see the danger instantly.

This is another example. This statement, as is, sounds inflammatory. You should realize that. On what basis do you conclude that most adults would see the danger? There are a whole bunch of implicit assumptions being made. Maybe it will help to spell out these assumptions, and look at them one by one, then you can have an intelligent discussion about them... if you just state it like you did above, it will just push a bunch of folks over the edge.

And the point as well is, this is the way every topic of risk is handled here (by many). Do you find that approach helpful?

No, but the way to have a more civil discussion is to take your share of responsibility for it. Simply clarifying your intentions and acknowledging that you said something untrue or inflammatory is a great way to diffuse many disagreements.

insulting? patronizing? Do you accept that you are not worthy of better, because your life is at stake and soto concede any capability on your part to handle nuance would be a dis-service to the role of protector/policer?

The tone of many discussion is annoying, but there is often something useful, or thought provoking to take away. Why not just look at it that way, as a source of perspectives different from your own... Also, trying to think about why someone said something, rather than focusing on what was literally said, can be helpful.

I'm only OW certified, well Rescue recently also, and not knowing what I don't know, I'm either the luckiest man in the world, or the most preternaturally insightful, or perhaps simply a well-trained cave-certified diver reincarnated. Or there's more nuance to it than that.

It is more nuanced... living for 40 years without cancer or heart disease does not mean you are immune to either.

But maybe like the AGW warrior-scientists said, lying to us is a small price to pay for saving the world.

IMHO, not getting too worked up by something that was said on SB is a small price to pay for being exposed to perspectives other than your own.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

You know sometimes in real life conversations we get to the point where we have to agree to disagree. That normally happens when voice tones and body language makes it clear both positions are firmly and passionately held. Those nuances are not available on the net :doh:

The other thing that makes the conversations on forums different is who we are directing our comments to. Here we are trying to get the message out to those participating, those reading at the time but also those who will come later. This contributes to a bit of what may appear as chest thumping and posturing. In real life when a person basically starts trying to draw the bystanders into a heated discussion or hecklers appear from the sidelines people start to move away and avoid the On the net the tends to draw a crowd. as does the that often occurs when people get increasingly passionate in re-stating their opinion.

Eventually the point arrives where pretty much all that can be said has been said. When a thread gets long enough people recognize that others may not read the entire thread so they keep restating their information so it doesn't get lost in the previous posts. Don't get me wrong, these conversations can include valuable information and be highly entertaining. Having a strong or passionate opinion on something is great as long as the way it is expressed doesn't cross the line to become rude, condescending and breach ToS. :deal: I have enjoyed posting my personal viewpoint in this thread as a regular member of the community. I think I will make my personal decision to remove myself from the discussion as I don't enjoy and avoid them where I can. I hope I am wrong and this thread doesn't deteriorate....raying:

 

[gypsyjim]

You know sometimes in real life conversations we get to the point where we have to agree to disagree. .

I hope I am wrong and this thread doesn't deteriorate....raying:

A bit late for that wish?

There have been some really well thought out posts in this thread, by some extremely knowledgeable, skilled divers.

There has also been something else that smells suspiciously of
I believe that it may have become time to stop feeding the troll

 

[wspalding]

I have said repeatedly that diving is not safe, can not be totally safe but is worth the risks. I have said that adults have the right to make decisions about if a given dive is "safe enough" to justify doing it. People need to make informed choices and it is my belief that showing that video allows more information for them to make those choices. I actually have no particular dog in this fight believe it or not.

I know cave divers have a vested interest in making sure that people don't die in caves. They are the ones who have to get the bodies out, they are the ones who may be denied access to the cave system in the event of deaths. That doesn't impact me in any way personally.

All I care is that people have adequate information to make their choices. I care that people are safe and don't die diving. In the end it will be their actions and choices that will hasten their demise whether is be diving, driving or medical issues. We can't stop the foolhardy from being foolhardy but we can do a better job of informing the rest. I just don't think the video is all that confronting or sensationalized or scary. If that video really is all it take to scare someone off diving I don't see that as a big deal.

I don't see diving as all that elitist personally. I also agree that we get too many refrains of you must/must not/must have/must not have whatever or your gonna die! That doesn't mean that we should candy coat things either. I think we need a balance and you know what.. the voices on either side of the your gonna die, your not gonna die that easily help create that balance.

What I do believe is that a well trained and well informed diver is a lot less likely to die diving.

I'll go one step further and suggest that anyone who watches that video and then decides that they don't want to learn to dive because of the dangers, probably ought not be in the activity anyway.