(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

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pilot fish:
Some divers will expand their chests and extoll the virtues of being self sufficient and not relying on a Dive Op for minimum care, get a safety device to them quickly if they're distressed for whatever reason at the surface, but will sing high alto and foul their wetsuits if it is them that is in danger of drowning and are looking for a helping hand and none is close by. That's like the boffoo solo diver that is on his own till he needs your air at 100 ft and will yank the reg out of your mouth to save his own butt.Yeah, it's easy to sit in the comfort of your office or home and boast about what you'll do, it's quite another thing when you are gasping for air in full panic and need help. You might not do what you think you'll do, or feel the same way you do on this board. Macho is one thing, reality is quite another.

OK ... then try looking at it from the other side. Have you ever had to rescue someone from a diving accident?

If not, then it's very easy to sit in the comfort of your office and state (in hindsight) what should have happened. It's quite another thing to be having to analyze the situation, weigh the potential harm to others due to whatever actions you decide to take, consider the legal ramifications of everything you do, formulate an appropriate response, and act ... typically all within a matter of seconds.

FWIW - the diver in question made it to the surface. Even without any assistance from anyone else, he should have known enough ... from his basic Open Water training ... to dump his weights and inflate his BCD. Either action would've kept him on the surface under any condition. Failing to do that is his responsibility, and his alone.

That's why we teach that stuff from day one ... it's up to you, as the diver, to follow your training. If you fail to do that, you have no business blaming someone else for any harm you incur.

Diving is all about personal responsibility ... if you cannot grasp that concept, you should not be diving.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
ibnygator:
Why wouldn't you be able to dive the Spiegel Grove if you have 4 days in Key Largo? There are tons of operators ready to get you there...

Posted this in the florida forum here so will only respond briefly here.

4 days the issue seems to be from looking no boats seem to publish their dive sites in advance. As im only there a short time i could be unlucky and not find a boat going out to the site on the days im there.
 
NWGratefulDiver:
OK ... then try looking at it from the other side. Have you ever had to rescue someone from a diving accident?

If not, then it's very easy to sit in the comfort of your office and state (in hindsight) what should have happened. It's quite another thing to be having to analyze the situation, weigh the potential harm to others due to whatever actions you decide to take, consider the legal ramifications of everything you do, formulate an appropriate response, and act ... typically all within a matter of seconds.

FWIW - the diver in question made it to the surface. Even without any assistance from anyone else, he should have known enough ... from his basic Open Water training ... to dump his weights and inflate his BCD. Either action would've kept him on the surface under any condition. Failing to do that is his responsibility, and his alone.

That's why we teach that stuff from day one ... it's up to you, as the diver, to follow your training. If you fail to do that, you have no business blaming someone else for any harm you incur.

Diving is all about personal responsibility ... if you cannot grasp that concept, you should not be diving.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Good, logical question, Gratefull. We, as OW and AOW divers, are taught some basic skills to put into use if we need to help ourselves. It is my contention that Dive Ops need to have the same thing in place to get to the distressed diver quickly. I'm saying it needs to be looked at, studied, and a plan in place for that contingentcy, especailly at a site like the Grove. If a Dive Op cannot extend MINIMUM care to the divers on the boat they should not be taking divers to that site.
 
String:
Posted this in the florida forum here so will only respond briefly here.

4 days the issue seems to be from looking no boats seem to publish their dive sites in advance. As im only there a short time i could be unlucky and not find a boat going out to the site on the days im there.
I think Ocean Divers Schedule has a schedule. Obviously they cannot be certain that conditions will allow them to adhere to it verbatim, but it gives you an idea of how often they plan on diving the SG.
 
pilot fish:
Good, logical question, Gratefull. We, as OW and AOW divers, are taught some basic skills to put into use if we need to help ourselves. It is my contention that Dive Ops need to have the same thing in place to get to the distressed diver quickly. I'm saying it needs to be looked at, studied, and a plan in place for that contingentcy, especailly at a site like the Grove. If a Dive Op cannot extend MINIMUM care to the divers on the boat they should not be taking divers to that site.


When you get around to taking a Rescue class you will learn the following:

- Every decision you will make as a rescuer will involve trade-offs.
- You cannot anticipate and plan for every contingency.
- Those you do anticipate and plan for will most often not happen the way you expect them to.
- Your first priority is to maintain your own safety. You cannot help someone else by jeopardizing yourself. Creating a second victim (yourself) will only complicate matters.
- When affecting a rescue, you stop, think, then act. One of the things you are stopping to think about is how your actions will affect other divers.
- Distressed divers are often a danger not only to themselves, but also to anyone who might be trying to rescue them.
- Sometimes your best option is to not attempt the rescue at all.

These are often hard decisions ... they are also reality.

I have to believe that this boat captain considered all of these things. He had a responsibility not only to this diver, but to the other divers. In the case where these two responsibilities conflict, he has to decide to act in a way that will produce the best potential outcome ... keeping in mind that he probably left his crystal ball on shore that day and could not predict the outcome of any decision.

Now, if this diver were the only customer on the boat that day, then I would say that you have a legitimate concern ... but the captain had an equal duty to not take any action that might place the divers remaining in the water in jeopardy.

I'll repeat ... this diver was ON THE SURFACE! Had the diver followed his basic training, as the captain has a right to expect him to ... chances are that the worst that would've happened is that he'd have floated away from the wreck for some distance until he could be safely pulled from the water. It is possible that he could not do that, for some reason ... but from the news stories he was conscious and coherent, so the captain had a reasonable expectation that the guy was capable of dumping his weights to maintain flotation.

To my concern, an expectation of minimum care extends to assessing the diving conditions, making a reasonable judgment as to whether or not to do the dive, and responding to unforeseen circumstances in a responsible manner. It's a bit unreasonable to expect the captain to anticipate every possible thing that can go wrong (inclusive of divers not doing as they are trained to do), and jeopardize his boat and the other divers in order to run to the aid of someone who is in a position to help himself.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
pilot fish:
I'm saying it needs to be looked at, studied, and a plan in place for that contingentcy, especailly at a site like the Grove. If a Dive Op cannot extend MINIMUM care to the divers on the boat they should not be taking divers to that site.


and how do you know there arent plans ?
 
Pilot Fish...I am asking again...what level of service do you desire? What do you consider minimum care and how would you propose that dive operators provide it?
 
Puck:
I think Ocean Divers Schedule has a schedule. Obviously they cannot be certain that conditions will allow them to adhere to it verbatim, but it gives you an idea of how often they plan on diving the SG.

Good outfit. I dove with them.
 
taking NetDoc's advice below
NetDoc:
Never post in anger. Never post a lie. Never post anything that has the potential to embarass you. Learn to apologise when you are found to be wrong or if you say something stupid. Ignorance is curable, stupidity is just plain lethal. :D

biting my tongue

NetDoc:
Never post in anger. Never post a lie. Never post anything that has the potential to embarass you. Learn to apologise when you are found to be wrong or if you say something stupid. Ignorance is curable, stupidity is just plain lethal. :D

repeating the first line to myself
NetDoc:
Never post in anger. Never post a lie. Never post anything that has the potential to embarass you. Learn to apologise when you are found to be wrong or if you say something stupid. Ignorance is curable, stupidity is just plain lethal. :D

counting to ten million now... bbl
 
Island Dog:
Pilot Fish...I am asking again...what level of service do you desire? What do you consider minimum care and how would you propose that dive operators provide it?
PF,
What amount of money do you want to spend per dive for care over and above what is offered?

How would you feel if there was a tender with a couple of DM's on board waiting for you to screw up so they could drag you back to boat? How would you feel if they charged you $100. per dive?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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