(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[pilot fish]

Hey H2Andy,

SHUT UP!

I think that it's important to recognize the difference between casting blame and noting potential solutions/ameliorations that could have been made by people that were present.

I don't think anyone here is saying, out and out, "it's the captain's fault" -- most are saying "I think this could have potentially had a better resolution if the captain did such and such."

Edit: oh, and yeah... about the post count. I think I was around 375 or 400 when I started reading and participating in this thread.

That's right Kris,we are saying, in an attempt to learn, if the Capt did this or that, might that have helped? If the diver did this or that, might that have helped? If everyone were outright blaming the Capt we would be doing the same thing, let's explore the diver's actions etc. The Capt is here and has a voice to defend himself, the diver is gone and has no voice. We are just asking questions, not blaming.

One thing I find a bit unsettling is the view here that the Dive Op is said to be ONLY a water taxi to get you to and from the dive site but has no obligation to reach you if you surface unable to remain buoyant, for WHATEVER REASON. We are Sport Divers, folks, not Navy Seals. I'm sure that if they posted that fact and made it clearer to Sport divers, business would be reduced.

I want to make record by saying, it is my firm belief that all Dive Op boats that take divers to the USS Spiegel Grove have some form of plan in place that insures that a diver in distress at the surface can be gotten to quickly. If you have to charge the rescued diver a bit extra, so be it, but to leave them alone, unaided, is asking for more fatalities. This sort of thing happens often enough at that site that it must be addressed. Yes, the Dive Op has an obligation to all divers and you cannot start the engines while divers are still under the boat, but the Dive Op has an obligation to the distressed diver as wel and they need to create a plan that would help the distressed diver more quickly.

 

[BIGSAGE136]

I want to make record by saying, it is my firm belief that all Dive Op boats that take divers to the USS Spiegel Grove have some form of plan in place that insures that a diver in distress at the surface can be gotten to quickly. If you have to charge the rescued diver a bit extra, so be it, but to leave them alone, unaided, is asking for more fatalities. This sort of thing happens often enough at that site that it must be addressed. Yes, the Dive Op has an obligation to all divers and you cannot start the engines while divers are still under the boat, but the Dive Op has an obligation to the distressed diver as wel and they need to create a plan that would help the distressed diver more quickly.

After all its your charter. Make plans with the captain, and pay the crew accordingly.
Whats the beef?

Maybe they should select, and check out your equipment too?

 

[baitedstorm]

I haven't been on SB that long, but how come this thread seems to get a lot more leeway by the moderators than the others?
Why can't people just state their opinion ONCE, perhaps clarify once, and then MOVE ON??

Just thought I might ask some questions too...

It's all about the secret hand shake..... hehehehehehe ... starts off like this :monkeydan but ends up with a little of :fruit: and somewhere in the middle theres this :wave-smil , I can't tell you anymore of it, I've already said to much as it is..

 

[BIGSAGE136]

It's all about the secret hand shake..... hehehehehehe ... starts off like this :monkeydan but ends up with a little of :fruit: and somewhere in the middle theres this :wave-smil , I can't tell you anymore of it, I've already said to much as it is..

Now you've gone and jeopardized your membership!

 

[Island Dog]

Ok...Pilot Fish...tell me how you would like the dive ops to ensure your safety and then I will tell you how much it will cost you and every diver that goes to the Speigel Grove...and do not forget the Duane, the Bibb, the Eagle, the Thunderbolt, and many of the wrecks along Ft. Lauderdale-Miami.

Then we will take a poll here how many divers will be willing to pay for this added safety net?

 

[String]

One thing I find a bit unsettling is the view here that the Dive Op is said to be ONLY a water taxi to get you to and from the dive site but has no obligation to reach you if you surface unable to remain buoyant, for WHATEVER REASON. We are Sport Divers, folks, not Navy Seals.

No, you're supposed to be a fully qualified diver. In other words, a person that is capable of operating independently of others or in a pair relying on nobody else and responsible for the safe planning and execution of a dive. If for some reason you are unable to do this them you should never have been granted a qualification card as it means you ARENT safe to dive without relying on others.

I want to make record by saying, it is my firm belief that all Dive Op boats that take divers to the USS Spiegel Grove have some form of plan in place that insures that a diver in distress at the surface can be gotten to quickly.

I suspect they have tons of paper work for the US equivalent of the Health and Safety exec and risk assessments. No doubt they have plans. You need to realise though that they are not your own personal babysitter. They have a duty and responsibility to a far larger number of other people than 1 sole diver that cant look after himself.

If you have to charge the rescued diver a bit extra

Paying for a babysitter. In other words, you arent qualified to do the dive.

but the Dive Op has an obligation to the distressed diver as wel and they need to create a plan that would help the distressed diver more quickly.

and what makes you think boats dont have incident response plans? More to the point what exactly are they going to do. If they cant move the boat and dont have a tender they are incredibly limited in what they can and cant do. You seen to be hinting that a dive boat captain on seeing a diver in distress will just stand,watch and do nothing which blunty is absolute rubbish.


For what its worth in July im in florida and desperately want to dive the grove but only have 4 days in Key Largo. Hopefully i'll manage it. What do i want off a dive operator? An efficient taxi to and from the site with a sensible site briefing. Im well aware of the risks involved and well aware that im expected to look after myself. If the dive operator can get me there and back smoothly then thats all i expect off them and i'll be happy.

 

[String]

Then we will take a poll here how many divers will be willing to pay for this added safety net?

... and think of the legal implications of a diver paying "bodyguard tax" who subsequently has an accident and dies as a result. All those claims of not getting what they paid for from people thinking that the extra money means a boat operator has to be superman and the diver is made invincible.


FWIW, no i wouldnt pay for it. Its unrealistic,unworkable and imho not needed.

 

[pilot fish]

Some divers will expand their chests and extoll the virtues of being self sufficient and not relying on a Dive Op for minimum care, get a safety device to them quickly if they're distressed for whatever reason at the surface, but will sing high alto and foul their wetsuits if it is them that is in danger of drowning and are looking for a helping hand and none is close by. That's like the boffoo solo diver that is on his own till he needs your air at 100 ft and will yank the reg out of your mouth to save his own butt.Yeah, it's easy to sit in the comfort of your office or home and boast about what you'll do, it's quite another thing when you are gasping for air in full panic and need help. You might not do what you think you'll do, or feel the same way you do on this board. Macho is one thing, reality is quite another.

 

[String]

So again, that diver is NOT qualified to do the dive. Divers are made aware of the risks and are supposed to make their own mind up whether they are safe to do the dive or not. Its not up to someone else to say "it'll be ok" or "im here if you need me". Thats is only for students or divers un-qualified for the dive on offer.

Scuba diving is a low risk past time but there are risks. Divers should accept those risks and use that as a decision as to whether to do the dive or not. If you deem the risk is too high and you cant look after yourself then by all means pay someone a lot of extra money to nanny you through it but dont ever try to claim you're qualified and capable to do that dive after the event. Most divers are happy with their own skills and reactions in situations and practice it regulary. Other than normal buddy pairing i cant see why anyone should demand a further babysitter so they can go diving.
If you arent happy with your own skills or arent prepared to admit you MAY get hurt as a result of the dive then dont dive.

 

[ibnygator]

For what its worth in July im in florida and desperately want to dive the grove but only have 4 days in Key Largo. Hopefully i'll manage it.

Why wouldn't you be able to dive the Spiegel Grove if you have 4 days in Key Largo? There are tons of operators ready to get you there...

I'm doing a couple of days of diving in the Keys myself in a couple of weeks, and plan to get one in on the Grove. We have a contingency plan that says if the current is too great, we'll just do a drift on Molasses reef. I've done the Grove in a "hanging like a flag off the line" current and it wasn't a whole lot of fun. No problems, but I'd just rather spend my time and a lot less energy drifting when the conditions are like that.