(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida
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Capitalist market space. When I go to a beach, either I or the municipality (indirectly me, through taxes) am willing to pay for a lifeguard. If I go on a dive boat, I am confident that just about anyone would be willing to set me up with a DM, if I am willing to pay for it.
A lifeguard in any pool has a short haul to people swimming, and I haven't seen a pool with currents or moderately high waves. If something happens, I cannot, reasonably, count on someone 100 yards away to save me. I may hope they can, they may hope they can, but no guarantees. I guess that's why continuous practice of safety skills, training, and diving with a buddy are stressed so much -- personal reliance is the name of the game in this endeavor (I'm not talking about being abandoned by a boat, run over, etc., but rather if I have a problem and am not truly immediate vicinity of the boat)
Similar holds true for other outdoor activities. I'm a hiker, trekked all around. If I choose to hike solo, or separate from the group I'm with, it's on me to be self reliant. I carry my own basic survival gear, know how to use it, and absolutely don't count on the hike leader or on the rangers to save me. Even the "benign" Adirondacks have a fair number of annual deaths -- falling off cliffs, lost and die from exposure,... I carry a pretty big day pack, people wonder why -- I've not had to use most of the widgets for myself, but have had to help other hikers who were either not properly prepared or simply had a misfortune (stuff happens). If the weather bites, I fall off a cliff, the rangers don't get to fly a helo for me -- they are trained, I may be able to contact them, but my time may be up.
(Not trying to hijack this, but trying to explain my outlook based on an area that I do have lots of experience in, hiking. To tell the truth, when my time comes I hope it will be doing something that I personally enjoy doing, be it hiking, diving, whatever, activities that I entered into knowing the risks but doing them for the pleasure I find in the endeavor.)
A lifeguard in any pool has a short haul to people swimming, and I haven't seen a pool with currents or moderately high waves. If something happens, I cannot, reasonably, count on someone 100 yards away to save me. I may hope they can, they may hope they can, but no guarantees. I guess that's why continuous practice of safety skills, training, and diving with a buddy are stressed so much -- personal reliance is the name of the game in this endeavor (I'm not talking about being abandoned by a boat, run over, etc., but rather if I have a problem and am not truly immediate vicinity of the boat)
Similar holds true for other outdoor activities. I'm a hiker, trekked all around. If I choose to hike solo, or separate from the group I'm with, it's on me to be self reliant. I carry my own basic survival gear, know how to use it, and absolutely don't count on the hike leader or on the rangers to save me. Even the "benign" Adirondacks have a fair number of annual deaths -- falling off cliffs, lost and die from exposure,... I carry a pretty big day pack, people wonder why -- I've not had to use most of the widgets for myself, but have had to help other hikers who were either not properly prepared or simply had a misfortune (stuff happens). If the weather bites, I fall off a cliff, the rangers don't get to fly a helo for me -- they are trained, I may be able to contact them, but my time may be up.
(Not trying to hijack this, but trying to explain my outlook based on an area that I do have lots of experience in, hiking. To tell the truth, when my time comes I hope it will be doing something that I personally enjoy doing, be it hiking, diving, whatever, activities that I entered into knowing the risks but doing them for the pleasure I find in the endeavor.)
DennisS
Contributor
pilot fish:
If you're under the boat when the capt starts up the boat and turns on the props, you're hamburger.
pilot fish
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DennisS:
If you are in distress at a moring ball and the Capt tells you the wrong thing, to swim to the boat against current in 5 ft swells. or if the Capt and crew ignore your distress call you'd be a tunaburger.
pilot fish
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markfm:
Good points, Mark. At the beach, with raging surf, a lifeguard is still willing and able to get to you and if he is not, he has a boat to launch to get to you. Yes, you pay for that through taxes but when you pay a Dive Op to dive off their boat, that is just not a charge for weights and tank but and assumption that a minimum care will be provided to you if you get in trouble. They should at least have a plan in place. You assume risk going to the beach too.
What ifs aren't bad if used to explore theoretical situations and develope ideas about rescue plans. However, as evident by reading a lot of these posts, it can sometimes cloud the issue and tempt people to apply false information to a real event.
In reading through these threads it seems most responding are not willing to accept the possibility that the captain did as much as he could in the situation. Have you ever been in a similar circumstance? I have and I'm not sure I would do anything different than Capt Hill in the amount of time he had. The response that the Capt. (no crew on a six pac) should jump in is asking for trouble. A swimmer with no fins cannot fight such a current. Least of all fight a 2 kt. current towing a diver.
I beg all of you to consider that this was an ACCIDENT. The diver was experienced, period. He signalled he was fine and watched until 30fsw. His buddy even asked if he had enough air. Again signalling he was fine. I must reiterate that he was no novice. I'm sure a lot of you reading and responding have left some one at shallow depth thinking they're ok. Or possibly on the surface away from a boat, again, thinking your buddy is ok. Have you ever dived alone on a boat and had to be buddied with some one? I'm not saying I condone leaving anyone, but it happens often.
Consider that he may have had some sort of medical emergency that prevented him from thinking clearly, thus not inflating his BC and not losing his weights. I've seen very experienced divers do foolish things while in trouble. I have to tell experienced divers to inflate their BC's and keep their regs in their mouths until aboard. How many of you posting have dropped your weights when in trouble?
Yes, it is a tragedy that this man died. But, I think it's presumptuous to blame Capt. Hill, or the diver. Yes, the diver missed some steps in saving his own life, but who are you to judge. Would you, COULD you have done anything differently? How many of you have found yourselves in situations that could've turned ugly if it weren't for a bit of luck? Be honest.
Again, please consider that this is just an accident. In stead of tearing those involved apart, use the information to better your own diving.
In reading through these threads it seems most responding are not willing to accept the possibility that the captain did as much as he could in the situation. Have you ever been in a similar circumstance? I have and I'm not sure I would do anything different than Capt Hill in the amount of time he had. The response that the Capt. (no crew on a six pac) should jump in is asking for trouble. A swimmer with no fins cannot fight such a current. Least of all fight a 2 kt. current towing a diver.
I beg all of you to consider that this was an ACCIDENT. The diver was experienced, period. He signalled he was fine and watched until 30fsw. His buddy even asked if he had enough air. Again signalling he was fine. I must reiterate that he was no novice. I'm sure a lot of you reading and responding have left some one at shallow depth thinking they're ok. Or possibly on the surface away from a boat, again, thinking your buddy is ok. Have you ever dived alone on a boat and had to be buddied with some one? I'm not saying I condone leaving anyone, but it happens often.
Consider that he may have had some sort of medical emergency that prevented him from thinking clearly, thus not inflating his BC and not losing his weights. I've seen very experienced divers do foolish things while in trouble. I have to tell experienced divers to inflate their BC's and keep their regs in their mouths until aboard. How many of you posting have dropped your weights when in trouble?
Yes, it is a tragedy that this man died. But, I think it's presumptuous to blame Capt. Hill, or the diver. Yes, the diver missed some steps in saving his own life, but who are you to judge. Would you, COULD you have done anything differently? How many of you have found yourselves in situations that could've turned ugly if it weren't for a bit of luck? Be honest.
Again, please consider that this is just an accident. In stead of tearing those involved apart, use the information to better your own diving.
pilot fish:
If this is a concern by all means discuss it with a charter. If they don't have satisfactory answers dive with some one else.
Do divers do this?
pilot fish:
Yeah they do have a plan. Drift off the dive site and pick up the diver. It seems that thats what they (he) atempted to do. Or would we perfer that the captan abandon his boat, jump in the water, swim a distance to the diver in a current and 4-7 ft waves so they both can't get back to the boat, and possibly loosing the boat so the other 5 divers can't get in eather. (Rule: never leave the boat unattended)
Again on a side note. I don't know of any well trained lifeguards that are willing to jump into the water in a strong current. They know better. They will send a boat, or a jet ski to get the victim, but it won't be within a few seconds. And if the victim will be negatively bouyant, very likely it will be to late.
I don't blame the diver, if in my post it seems that way than I'm sorry. But I don't believe that the diver was at the surface drifting more than a few seconds. If he was than he would probably be found further down current from the buoy, not near it like he was. And I speculate that the captan had very little time for a SAFE and succesful surface rescue.
What we do has inherent dangers, and no one can make scuba diving 100% safe. As divers we eveluate the risks and try our best to manage them. But there is always that unknown.
Jaci
Guest
After reading the article "could the diver be saved" it was done by a sensationalist journalist. Chances are that soon after the diver went down he was beyond hope unless his buddy found him on the way up, knew how to effect a rescue in rough seas and found him before his lungs filled with seawater. The only way this diver would have been rescued by a service is if he was floating and needed to be found.
I am curious if an investigator actually looks at all the info, the dive computer, tank air, time lines, autopsy reports and the like to put together a comprehensive report. The dive computer would be particularly instructive, it would be similar to the computers on a lot of vehicles that record the previous events prior to an accident. Does anyone know if DAN or some other agency dissects this info?
I am curious if an investigator actually looks at all the info, the dive computer, tank air, time lines, autopsy reports and the like to put together a comprehensive report. The dive computer would be particularly instructive, it would be similar to the computers on a lot of vehicles that record the previous events prior to an accident. Does anyone know if DAN or some other agency dissects this info?
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