(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[pilot fish]

IMO, keep your mouth shut until more facts come to light. The Dive Op said they would post to THIS board if and when they were able, and they currently can not.
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Ron]]]]]]]] ron Frank

I will thank you for not telling me to shut my mouth. That is NOT in the spirit of this discussion, or board.

Please show me where I said the Capt should have started his engines while divers were still under the boat on a SS? Actually I said that I understood why he could not.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I wish I could say that I've read this whole thing but I just don't have that much energy. I guess the responsibility of the charter all depends on what they promise and briefe. The boats I dive on in the Great Lakes (both private and charters) make it clear that should you get blown off the wreck or surface someplace else for whatever reason that you are on your own until the other divers are up and the boat can move. I suppose that if you were close enough some one might toss you a line but none of the one or two person crew is likely even dressed to leave the boat and odds are that no one is comming after you no matter what you "signal".

I don't know how many have noticed but you'd probably stand a better chance of getting help if you were on the moon than below the surface of the water and alone. Divers may as well come to terms with it. The sea doesn't cut new, sick or poorly skilled divers any extra slack. That may sound cold but diving is only safe if you stay out of trouble or can handle whatever trouble you do find within your team (or alone if you don't have a team). If you can't your chances drop way down right near zero regardless of what any one else tries to do or would like to do. Diving is like other things like mountain climbing, hiking accross the back country or what ever in that you and your team can pretty much expect to be on your own untill you get yourselves back on the boat or at least very close.

I'm leaning toward the opinion that accident analysis is totally useless when it comes to diving. Notice we see the same stuff over and over and over...diver surfaces (alone?), waves for help and disappears....or like in the other thread going on now...diver surfaces alone while buddy finishes safety stop and is gone when buddy surfaces...or the accident at Haigh las week...buddies lose track of diver and he's found later on the surface dead. See any trends here? Certainly that's not to say that having company would have saved these unfortunate divers if the cause of death was a heart attack or something but without the seperations at least no one would have had to go looking for them and their chances would have been maximized. The exact cause of death mat very but the divers are alone in an overwelming majority of the cases. Yet so many divers and those that train them don't get it and their not going to get it. Analyze what? The core problems (root causes) are as obvious as a slap in the face if you ask me.

 

[my1ocean]

If an experienced diver, such as the one in this accident, surfaces in need of assistance, doesn't inflate his BC, doesn't drop his weight, and leaves a secure mooring to swim in a swift current (these are facts we know to be true), what does that suggest?

Would he have been able to catch a line even if it were thrown to him? If he were in the throws of a heart attack or overexpansion injury (AGE), the only thing that could have saved him is another diver, if he could have been saved at all.

Mind you, THIS IS ONLY SPECULATION and intended to get some thoughtful replies.

 

[Island Dog]

Pilot Fish...yes I have dove the Grove...over 125 dives at last count. I also know first hand that It's A Dive's standard predive briefing strongly stresses the importance of coming up the correct mooring ball. Then they go on to say that if you have to come up the wrong ball...stay put until all the rest of the divers are collected and then they will come get you.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience but all dive operators do not use the same protocols or attention to detail. It's A Dive is a professional and safety conscience operation. Just like everything in life...do not paint every dive operator with the same brush.

And oh by the way...why couldn't you find the right ball?

 

[pilot fish]

If an experienced diver, such as the one in this accident, surfaces in need of assistance, doesn't inflate his BC, doesn't drop his weight, and leaves a secure mooring to swim in a swift current (these are facts we know to be true), what does that suggest?

Would he have been able to catch a line even if it were thrown to him? If he were in the throws of a heart attack or overexpansion injury (AGE), the only thing that could have saved him is another diver, if he could have been saved at all.

Mind you, THIS IS ONLY SPECULATION and intended to get some thoughtful replies.

That is what is baffling about this, especially at his level of cert. Was he higly rated but little actual dive experience?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only real facts we have is that he surfaced, held onto the mooring ball, was found dead at the bottom with no air in tank or bc and weights still attached. We really don't know why he left the mooring ball. Was he told to, or did he do it on his own?

 

[my1ocean]

I wish I could say that I've read this whole thing but I just don't have that much energy. I guess the responsibility of the charter all depends on what they promise and briefe. The boats I dive on in the Great Lakes (both private and charters) make it clear that should you get blown off the wreck or surface someplace else for whatever reason that you are on your own until the other divers are up and the boat can move. I suppose that if you were close enough some one might toss you a line but none of the one or two person crew is likely even dressed to leave the boat and odds are that no one is comming after you no matter what you "signal".

I don't know how many have noticed but you'd probably stand a better chance of getting help if you were on the moon than below the surface of the water and alone. Divers may as well come to terms with it. The sea doesn't cut new, sick or poorly skilled divers any extra slack. That may sound cold but diving is only safe if you stay out of trouble or can handle whatever trouble you do find within your team (or alone if you don't have a team). If you can't your chances drop way down right near zero regardless of what any one else tries to do or would like to do.

I'm leaning toward the opinion that accident analysis is totally useless when it comes to diving. Notice we see the same stuff over and over and over...diver surfaces (alone?), waves for help and disappears....or like in the other thread going on now...diver surfaces alone while buddy finishes safety stop and is gone when buddy surfaces...or the accident at Haigh las week...buddies lose track of diver and he's found later on the surface. See any trends here? Certainly that's not to say that having company would have saved these unfortunate divers if the cause of death was a heart attack or something but without the seperations at least no one would have had to go looking for them and their chances would have been maximized. Yet so many divers and those that train them don't get it and their not going to get it. Analyze what? The core problems (root causes) are as obvious as a slap in the face if you ask me.

One should really know what one is getting into, for sure. But, I think you've painted a somewhat pessimistic picture. I think it reasonable to expect as much help as possible if a diver is in distress. It is not unreasonable to brief divers that if there is a problem, a boat may leave a mooring for a rescue as long as there are no divers trying to board at the time. Granted this is a keys specific reply.

As for accident annalysis, I think there is serendipty here. As a boat opperator, I have weighed the facts and tried to consider what I personally would have done differently. If nothing else has come of it, at least we are forced to entertain what might be done differently in the future and diver's reading these threads may realize, as you say, they just may be on their own and need to practice self rescue.

I agree with you, Mike, the buddy system is there for a reason and a good one at that. But, divers seperate daily here in the Keys and the answer is not to say "to hell with you if you're alone".

 

[pilot fish]

Pilot Fish...yes I have dove the Grove...over 125 dives at last count. I also know first hand that It's A Dive's standard predive briefing strongly stresses the importance of coming up the correct mooring ball. Then they go on to say that if you have to come up the wrong ball...stay put until all the rest of the divers are collected and then they will come get you.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience but all dive operators do not use the same protocols or attention to detail. It's A Dive is a professional and safety conscience operation. Just like everything in life...do not paint every dive operator with the same brush.

And oh by the way...why couldn't you find the right ball?

Wow! 125 dives on the Grove? You know that site very well. I have 3 dives on that site.

I came up the wrong line becasuse I was totally distracted by malfunctioning puter,
[ I should have thumbed the dive but foolishly did not], and lost sight of my proper spot -did not take proper visiual of were I got off the line. Totally my fault. My dive "buddy," who knew by puter was screwed, left me at the bow and went down below 100ft. Since he had been leaving me several times before that I said, the hell with this, I'm going up. I have air intergrated puter. I swam alone to a bit before midships were I thought my line was. My line was the next one down.

 

[my1ocean]

That is what is baffling about this, especially at his level of cert. Was he higly rated but little actual dive experience?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only real facts we have is that he surfaced, held onto the mooring ball, was found dead at the bottom with no air in tank or bc and weights still attached. We really don't know why he left the mooring ball. Was he told to, or did he do it on his own?

At this point it doesn't really matter if he was told to or not. He did. It was his decision in the circumstances. As it was your decision to leave the line you were on. Did you leave because you thought you could make it, or because some one told you to?

Again only speculation, but I think he didn't have his complete faculties or realized he was not going to be conscious much longer.

 

[my1ocean]

He was told to stay on the line.

 

[pilot fish]

At this point it doesn't really matter if he was told to or not. He did. It was his decision in the circumstances. As it was your decision to leave the line you were on. Did you leave because you thought you could make it, or because some one told you to?

Again only speculation, but I think he didn't have his complete faculties or realized he was not going to be conscious much longer.

I think if he were told to, that is different. He's in distress and looking for guidance, right?

I was told to swim to the right boat but could not so turned around and went to the wrong boat. A line was thrown over to us by DM that jumped in with line to get us. She was a top notch DM, in my book.

Why do you dove the Grove so often?