(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[pilot fish]

So what? No one is going to get access to a full fledged accident report unless you're family (or a lawyer for the family). Even if one could get the report, I doubt if it will be able to assign fault. Besides what do you gain in finding out what "really" occured (aside from assigning blame or fault). Remember the rules:

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through accident analysis.
Accurate analysis of accidents and incidents that could easily have become accidents is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow. To foster the free exchange of information valuable to this process, the "manners" in this forum are much more tightly controlled than elsewhere on the board. In addition to the TOS:

(1) Events will be "scrubbed" of names. You may refer to articles or news releases already in the public domain, but the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) No "blamestorming." Accident analysis does not "find fault" - it finds hazards - and how to reduce or eliminate them.(3) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(4) No trolling.
(5) Remember that you cannot read minds. Restrict comments to what happened and how to prevent it, without speculating on what someone else was thinking (or not). The only thoughts you are qualified to share are your own.

While we may never get enough information to make an "accurate analysis of accidents and incidents" you can build lessons learned (I'm paraphrasing here).

Not sure I understand your post about assigning blame, scrubbing names, etc. I was not assigning blame but wondering if the fact, is it a fact?, that he was on a sixpak boat would make it easier to retrieve him from the buoy, or get a line to him? Novice divers do not go on sixpak boats. The only way we arrive at conclusions is asking questions, which is what we are doing.

At some point in the future DAN will post the events that are involved in this incident.

 

[pilot fish]

Thus spake cmgmg.

Read your own post for the forum rules (http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1077594&postcount=235). There is no prohibition on your "shouda couda wouda analysis".

Please, stop trying to act like everyone's nanny. If the contributions I make are within the scope of the forum rules, there really is no reason to attack what I am saying.

Oh, and if it takes a "rescue diver" cert to attempt a surface rescue, then we're in more trouble than we think! There are many who are trained to a greater degree than just "rescue diver" who can do it better, yet have never donned scuba gear.

Neither of those boats in that link are sixpaks. Is one of them the boat he was on?

 

[pilot fish]

Thus spake cmgmg.

Read your own post for the forum rules (http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1077594&postcount=235). There is no prohibition on your "shouda couda wouda analysis".

Please, stop trying to act like everyone's nanny. If the contributions I make are within the scope of the forum rules, there really is no reason to attack what I am saying.

Oh, and if it takes a "rescue diver" cert to attempt a surface rescue, then we're in more trouble than we think! There are many who are trained to a greater degree than just "rescue diver" who can do it better, yet have never donned scuba gear.

This is the link I was responding to. Sorry, Kris

http://www.itsadive.com/Dive_Boats.htm

 

[Island Dog]

Yes the boat he was on is on the link. It is the last picture on the page.

Novice divers go on six packs all the time but that is of no matter regarding this discussion.

As for ease of moving the boat...everything is relative. The captain had to start the motors...idle up to the ball (remember he had three divers doing their safety stops on the line and could not endanger them)...disconnect and then idle over to search area (a 100 or so feet away)...all of which takes time. Even this discussion is only a tangent as he never re-surfaced.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Not sure I understand your post about assigning blame, scrubbing names, etc. I was not assigning blame but wondering if the fact, is it a fact?, that he was on a sixpak boat would make it easier to retrieve him from the buoy, or get a line to him? Novice divers do not go on sixpak boats. The only way we arrive at conclusions is asking questions, which is what we are doing.

At some point in the future DAN will post the events that are involved in this incident.

Just reiterating the basic rules...

The boat in question was the N2Deep which is in the picture. As to whether or not it is a sixpak, it's stated on their site's Q&A as:
Quote:
What type of boats do you have and how many divers/snorkelers do you take?
It's A Dive operates two dive boats. Seastar is our 45 foot Corinthian Catamaran and our primary dive/snorkel boat. It features a large spacious dive platforms that can comfortably take 25+ divers and snorkelers to the reef. Occasionally the boat fills up be generally the number of divers/snorkelers is 12-15. Keep mind a cattle boat is not how many divers on board, but how you are treated on board. The It's A Dive staff works very hard to ensure each and every diver and snorkeler receives personalized service.

N2Deep is our 30 foot six-pack. It is used primarily for trips to the deep wrecks and special charters

Both boats have a fresh water shower, marine head, and complimentary drinks on board

Unquote.

I'm not sure what your definition of a sixpak is but it's merely a US Coast Guard requirement to have on board (legally) is:
1 fire extinguisher
1 type 1 PFD for everyone on board
1 horn
1 flare kit
1 lifering
and everyone who's crew has to be enrolled in random drug testing.

Check out this link discussion on this subject:

http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13566&highlight=pack

Specifically Post #2 from Captn Dave.

As to whether or not "it easier to retrieve him from the buoy, or get a line to him?", read Gpatton's post #126 and #128 where it states:

THE BOAT CAPTAIN WITNESS J WHO STATED, HE HAD SEEN THE VICTIM SURFACE AND APPROXIMATELY 2:50 PM HOURS ONE MOORING BALL AWAY AND SIGNAL HE WAS IN DISTRESS. WITNESS J. FURTHER STATED, HE ADVISED THE VICTIM TO STAY PUT UNTIL THE OTHER DIVERS WERE ON THE BOAT. ACCORDING TO THE WITNESS J., THE CURRENT BEGAN TO PICK UP AND THE VICTIM TURNED LOOSE OF THE MOORING BALL. WITNESS J. STATED, THE VICTIM BEGAN TO TRY TO SWIM FOR THE BOAT BUT THEN WENT UNDER WATER. WITNESS J. STATED, HE THEN LEFT HIS MOORING TO GO HELPED THE VICTIM AND COULD NOT LOCATE HIM. WITNESS J. STATED, IT IS WHEN HE CONTACTED THE COAST GUARD BY RADIO AND CELL PHONE, AND APPROXIMATELY 2:55 PM

Again, maybe I'm focusing too much on this but 2:50 pm the victim comes up, signals he's in distress, the captain advised him stay put until the other divers were on the boat (remember, the other three divers hadn't surfaced yet ... according to Island Dog). THEN the victim let go of the mooring ball and tried to swim for the boat. Captain left his mooring but can't find him and contacts the coast guard 2:55 pm. Check my math ... that's 5 minutes.

As for as not assigning blame, in your post #214 responding to Tom Winter's post (where he said "These guys screwed the pooch not jumping in, swimming over, dumping the weight belt, and inflating him.) you said "The very least would have been to throw him a line, floatation device, something, but help him in some way till they could drag him aboard." Am I missing something here?? If I read this, it seems someone's assigning blame and someone's agreeing. If I misread it, I'm sorry.

 

[pilot fish]

Yes the boat he was on is on the link. It is the last picture on the page.

Novice divers go on six packs all the time but that is of no matter regarding this discussion.

As for ease of moving the boat...everything is relative. The captain had to start the motors...idle up to the ball (remember he had three divers doing their safety stops on the line and could not endanger them)...disconnect and then idle over to search area (a 100 or so feet away)...all of which takes time. Even this discussion is only a tangent as he never re-surfaced.

yes, I see the last boat. Didn't know 6 paks had a little cuddy cabin? Thought it was all open? The reason I mentioned that novice divers do not go on 6 paks is because I thought you had to have an advanced rating to dive off one at advanced sites?

Yes, I can see where it would be imprudent to rev the engine and spin the prop while other divers are still uw. There just seems to be SOMETHING that could have been done for this poor diver, but I don't really know what.

 

[sharpenu]

There is no duty to act in Florida. A local firefighter was killed while assisting with an auto accident when a third vehicle crashed into the wreckage in the rain. His wife was denied his "on duty" death benefit, as they ruled he was NOT on duty. The state had to make a special exemption for her to get the money. Since then, I have all but stopped assisting at accidents.

 

[pilot fish]

Just reiterating the basic rules...

The boat in question was the N2Deep which is in the picture. As to whether or not it is a sixpak, it's stated on their site's Q&A as:
Quote:
What type of boats do you have and how many divers/snorkelers do you take?
It's A Dive operates two dive boats. Seastar is our 45 foot Corinthian Catamaran and our primary dive/snorkel boat. It features a large spacious dive platforms that can comfortably take 25+ divers and snorkelers to the reef. Occasionally the boat fills up be generally the number of divers/snorkelers is 12-15. Keep mind a cattle boat is not how many divers on board, but how you are treated on board. The It's A Dive staff works very hard to ensure each and every diver and snorkeler receives personalized service.

N2Deep is our 30 foot six-pack. It is used primarily for trips to the deep wrecks and special charters

Both boats have a fresh water shower, marine head, and complimentary drinks on board

Unquote.

I'm not sure what your definition of a sixpak is but it's merely a US Coast Guard requirement to have on board (legally) is:
1 fire extinguisher
1 type 1 PFD for everyone on board
1 horn
1 flare kit
1 lifering
and everyone who's crew has to be enrolled in random drug testing.

Check out this link discussion on this subject:

http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13566&highlight=pack

Specifically Post #2 from Captn Dave.

As to whether or not "it easier to retrieve him from the buoy, or get a line to him?", read Gpatton's post #126 and #128 where it states:

THE BOAT CAPTAIN WITNESS J WHO STATED, HE HAD SEEN THE VICTIM SURFACE AND APPROXIMATELY 2:50 PM HOURS ONE MOORING BALL AWAY AND SIGNAL HE WAS IN DISTRESS. WITNESS J. FURTHER STATED, HE ADVISED THE VICTIM TO STAY PUT UNTIL THE OTHER DIVERS WERE ON THE BOAT. ACCORDING TO THE WITNESS J., THE CURRENT BEGAN TO PICK UP AND THE VICTIM TURNED LOOSE OF THE MOORING BALL. WITNESS J. STATED, THE VICTIM BEGAN TO TRY TO SWIM FOR THE BOAT BUT THEN WENT UNDER WATER. WITNESS J. STATED, HE THEN LEFT HIS MOORING TO GO HELPED THE VICTIM AND COULD NOT LOCATE HIM. WITNESS J. STATED, IT IS WHEN HE CONTACTED THE COAST GUARD BY RADIO AND CELL PHONE, AND APPROXIMATELY 2:55 PM

Again, maybe I'm focusing too much on this but 2:50 pm the victim comes up, signals he's in distress, the captain advised him stay put until the other divers were on the boat (remember, the other three divers hadn't surfaced yet ... according to Island Dog). THEN the victim let go of the mooring ball and tried to swim for the boat. Captain left his mooring but can't find him and contacts the coast guard 2:55 pm. Check my math ... that's 5 minutes.

As for as not assigning blame, in your post #214 responding to Tom Winter's post (where he said "These guys screwed the pooch not jumping in, swimming over, dumping the weight belt, and inflating him.) you said "The very least would have been to throw him a line, floatation device, something, but help him in some way till they could drag him aboard." Am I missing something here?? If I read this, it seems someone's assigning blame and someone's agreeing. If I misread it, I'm sorry.

You take my words the next step - "the least they could have done is throw him a line", I still think that, which is wondering more than blaming. I do underrstand that you would think I'm blaming the Dive Op. At this point I am not, but I'm wondering what more could have been done?

 

[RonFrank]

As Andy asked, where did Island Dog get that info? If true it sheds additional light on the incident but still tells of nothing about what really occured. If it was a sixpak boat, thought it was larger?, could it have been easier to move that boat towards him?

Pilot Fish,

You seem to have a lot to say about all this, but what you don't seem to have done is READ as MUCH as you can ABOUT the incident BEFORE posting...

I read most of this thread yesterday, and Island dog had posted his info, and there were posts from the Dive agency as well INCLUDING the name of the boat and links to their site which includes photo's of the boat... YES, A SIXPACK...

You ALSO seem to ignore the fact that a captain is NOT going to kick on the engines WHILE divers are IN the water potentially directly UNDER the props unless he has no other option available.

The tone of these posts, based on apparent ignorance of general water safety, and what few facts have been presented seem to imply blame on the Dive Agency, and Captain.

Why not blame everyone else in the area and be done with it, the diver, the other divers, the other boats in the area, the fish in the ocean.. ALL should have done things differently to prevent this tragady!!

Sheesh!

 

[DiveGolfSki]

You take my words the next step - "the least they could have done is throw him a line", I still think that, which is wondering more than blaming. I do underrstand that you would think I'm blaming the Dive Op. At this point I am not, but I'm wondering what more could have been done?

Let's let it go. Not worth arguing. I'll take your point that you're not blaming anyone. Okay?

Meanwhile, I'm still wondering if DAN or any accident report will have enough information on the how's and why's. How does one access the formal incident report (sheriff's, coast guarad, whatever?). Is that public domain? I'm sure this won't be the end of this. The dive operator has promised (on his post) to make a statement ONCE the formal report is completed. Let's see.