(5/01/05) Diver missing in Florida

[ParamedicDiver1]

Not the case here. If you are trained in first aid and fail to act despite there being no other assistance around, you can be held liable. I think the rationale for it falls this way:

1. as a trained first responder (and human), you have a duty to act to save another human's life
2. by not responding, you breach that duty
3. this *caused* the patient to be delayed care
4. the damage could range from delayed recovery right up to death.

And I know you're thinking it -- "Canada, the next communist state" -- and you're probably right, given the political trends up here.

Perhaps this is the case in Canada, but with just a few states as the exception, that is not the case in the US. Being trained in First Aid (which we still consider layperson training) does not constitute a duty to act. The majority of states only *require* local Fire/EMS/Rescue/etc. people to respond. Case in point: I am a In-Charge Paramedic with Harris County Emergency Services District-1, we are responsible for ~100 sq miles of the northern unincorporated part of Harris County. I am responsible for my district when I am on duty and only then. If, while driving home, I see a accident in the City of Houston's district, I am under no legal requirement to stop and render aid and in fact many Medical Lawyers would recommend not stopping because of liability issues.

 

[pilot fish]

Pilot Fish,

You seem to have a lot to say about all this, but what you don't seem to have done is READ as MUCH as you can ABOUT the incident BEFORE posting...

I read most of this thread yesterday, and Island dog had posted his info, and there were posts from the Dive agency as well INCLUDING the name of the boat and links to their site which includes photo's of the boat... YES, A SIXPACK...

You ALSO seem to ignore the fact that a captain is NOT going to kick on the engines WHILE divers are IN the water potentially directly UNDER the props unless he has no other option available.

The tone of these posts, based on apparent ignorance of general water safety, and what few facts have been presented seem to imply blame on the Dive Agency, and Captain.

Why not blame everyone else in the area and be done with it, the diver, the other divers, the other boats in the area, the fish in the ocean.. ALL should have done things differently to prevent this tragady!!

Sheesh!

Ron, I don't need a lecture from you, thankyouverymuch! Island Dog posted some "facts" but did not say where they came from. Was that hearsay, or from an official report? He did not say. Did I miss that? I think you mean that I have a lot of questions, I do, as do most posters in this thread.

I have read enough to realize that a diver died that should not have. I've also read enough to know that a diver reached the surface, signaled the boat that he was in distress and then sank below the surface and died. I don't know why. Do you?

You might also reread some of my posts that state, I understand why a boat would not start the engines while divers were still uw. You might want to read a bit more of this thread before you attack me and accuse me. Thanks

 

[pilot fish]

Let's let it go. Not worth arguing. I'll take your point that you're not blaming anyone. Okay?

Meanwhile, I'm still wondering if DAN or any accident report will have enough information on the how's and why's. How does one access the formal incident report (sheriff's, coast guarad, whatever?). Is that public domain? I'm sure this won't be the end of this. The dive operator has promised (on his post) to make a statement ONCE the formal report is completed. Let's see.

Don't mean to argue. I was agreeing with you that my words do indicate I'm implying blame to the Dive Op. I'm really questioning why a line was not thrown to him, more than anything, I can throw a line close to a diver 100 ft away,I think. The line could have just reached 50 ft, 75 ft, but it would have been closer that having him swim 100 ft to the boat. Again, HE left the safety of the buoy so that makes things different.

I would much prefer a statement from a neutral 3rd party instead of the Dive Op.

 

[derwoodwithasherwood]

Canada, the next communist state" -- and you're probably right, given the political trends up here.

That may be a provincial jurisdictional issue, because my understanding of the law in Ontario is different. Except for cases of suspected child abuse and other isolated exceptions, no one acting as a private citizen is required to take action on becoming aware of another in need of assistance, even a life-threatening situation.

However, once an individual DECIDES to take action, offer assistance, etc. then that person is commited to providing care to the best of their abilities and training, as may be possible under the specific circumstances of the incident. That person must continue to provide care and assistance until releived by persons of equal or superior qualifications, or until the person being assisted refuses further assistance, or until physically exhausted and unable to continue further.

 

[Island Dog]

Pilot Fish....I am not sure what amazes me more...the fact that you are ready to lay blame without knowing all the facts or the fact that you think you could have thrown a ball to the victim.

Even if you could throw a line and ball anywhere near 100ft (which in my experience would be nothing short of amazing) you do not have a full grasp of the situation. The mooring lines are over 100ft apart where they are attached to the hull. Consider that ball 3 did not have a boat attached to it. Ball 5 had a 30ft dive boat attached to it. The increasee resistance to wind and waves pushed ball 5 back and significantly increases the distance. Then you add a bow line of 15-20 feet. Then you add the length of the boat to the point you could in fact throw a line. Then you add the fact that the boat is moving about in 3-5ft seas. Then you add the fact that you would be throwing either against or across a 10-15 knot wind.

Your whole premise that anyone on the boat could have thrown a line and ball to assist the victim is fantasy.

 

[pilot fish]

Pilot Fish....I am not sure what amazes me more...the fact that you are ready to lay blame without knowing all the facts or the fact that you think you could have thrown a ball to the victim.

Even if you could throw a line and ball anywhere near 100ft (which in my experience would be nothing short of amazing) you do not have a full grasp of the situation. The mooring lines are over 100ft apart where they are attached to the hull. Consider that ball 3 did not have a boat attached to it. Ball 5 had a 30ft dive boat attached to it. The increasee resistance to wind and waves pushed ball 5 back and significantly increases the distance. Then you add a bow line of 15-20 feet. Then you add the length of the boat to the point you could in fact throw a line. Then you add the fact that the boat is moving about in 3-5ft seas. Then you add the fact that you would be throwing either against or across a 10-15 knot wind.

Your whole premise that anyone on the boat could have thrown a line and ball to assist the victim is fantasy.

Yes, ID, I'm rethinking that speculation of being able to get a ball close to a diver 100 ft away. I was not thinking of the ball at the end but just the line. You're right, that would not work.Sorry.

I'm not blaming the Dive Op at this point, since none of us know the real facts. Where did you get your additional info from? The fact that he left the relative safety of the mooring ball changes the whole dynamic, and makes it more puzzling.

 

[my1ocean]

I understand the point of this site is to learn from other's mistakes. I've read through much of the posts here. There are some very valid points and, I'm sure, much appreciated well-wishing. However, it is also riddled with specious statements and assumptions. One's hind sight can only be 20/20 if you have all the correct facts and this is not the case. Even the police report has mistakes in it.

It is easy to sit down at your computer after much contemplation and explain how you think things should have gone. This is not and never will be a perfect world. If Captain Hill had done everything perfectly, it is not clear that this diver would have been saved. It is a wreckless assumption, and a bit sardonic to say that he could have without a clear picture of the events.

It is also antiproductive to the purpose of this site to pose assumptions or questions as statements of fact. Just because he was found without air in his tank does not mean he didn't have any on the surface. And the topic of who should and should not be allowed to dive on the Spiegle Grove is inane. It is open to the public. Dive oppperations in the Keys have merely using standards on who they will take on their boats.

I think the lesson that should be taken from this accident is that diving can be dangerous at times. One should prepare oneself for the task at hand as much as possible, but accidents still happen. One can try to put oneself in the position of captain or diver and reflect on what one would do differently, but that is where it should end.

my1ocean

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Yes, ID, I'm rethinking that speculation of being able to get a ball close to a diver 100 ft away. I was not thinking of the ball at the end but just the line. You're right, that would not work.Sorry.

I'm not blaming the Dive Op at this point, since none of us know the real facts. Where did you get your additional info from? The fact that he left the relative safety of the mooring ball changes the whole dynamic, and makes it more puzzling.

Hey Pilot Fish you really can't let this go can you. You JUST realized that he left the safety of the mooring ball? And now it changes the whole dynamic? GPatton explained that on post #126 page 11. If you haven't read it, I suggest you do so. Pay particular attention to the timeline ...2:50pm to 2:55 pm.

 

[pilot fish]

Hey Pilot Fish you really can't let this go can you. You JUST realized that he left the safety of the mooring ball? And now it changes the whole dynamic? GPatton explained that on post #126 page 11. If you haven't read it, I suggest you do so. Pay particular attention to the timeline ...2:50pm to 2:55 pm.

No, I realized that before. I was just restating it because we don't know why he left the mooring ball. Do you? Was he asked, or did he decide to do it on his own? I know it was reported that he was told to stay there but that report was given by an interested party, wasn't it?

The reason I wonder is, on the same dive site, [ have YOU ever dove the Spiegel Grove?] under the same conditions, I came up on the wrong line about a 100 ft or more from my dive boat. There were 5 ft swells but I was told to swim to my own boat. I tried but could not do it against the current [ I got full blown hypoxia trying] so went back to the wrong boat, down current, and waited there till they got a line over to the other divers and I who had come up the wrong line. A total of 5 of us. The reason I mention this is that I think I was given the wrong advice to try that swim in 5 ft chop against the current. Who knows what advice he was actually given while at the mooring ball? None of us were there. At this point I blame NOBODY, but I have a lot of questions.

You may consider this issue dropped between you and I.

 

[RonFrank]

Ron, I don't need a lecture from you, thankyouverymuch! Island Dog posted some "facts" but did not say where they came from. Was that hearsay, or from an official report? He did not say. Did I miss that? I think you mean that I have a lot of questions, I do, as do most posters in this thread.

I have read enough to realize that a diver died that should not have. I've also read enough to know that a diver reached the surface, signaled the boat that he was in distress and then sank below the surface and died. I don't know why. Do you?

You might also reread some of my posts that state, I understand why a boat would not start the engines while divers were still uw. You might want to read a bit more of this thread before you attack me and accuse me. Thanks

Do you?

I've read your posts. Most of the suggestions lay blame on the boat captain. He should have started his boat, he should have thrown a line, they should have launced a smaller craft... All foolish in light of the fact that you had zero idea what the situation was, and some FACTS, like the markers were 100' apart were available (throw a line 100', guess you've never actually tried that LOL)?

People are all over this thread making broad assumptions, most of which would lay the blame at the boat captains feet, and dive OP.

Did it EVER occur to you that a seasoned Caption who navagates this site, and transports divers on a Daily basis is a HECK of a lot better equipped to deal with the stress of this type of situation than most (Mabye EVERYONE posting) on this board. Do you truely believe that this Captain was thinking "screw that diver in distress" when this happened. Did it cross your mind that maybe the Captain did everything exactly as a seasoned professional in a difficult situation could??

THAT is the assumption I will make until proven otherwise.

IMO, keep your mouth shut until more facts come to light. The Dive Op said they would post to THIS board if and when they were able, and they currently can not.