3 Divers lost on the Spiegel Grove

[Rick Murchison]

I believe that the accident was a horrible accident caused by over-confidence and a stupid attitude of invincibility. ... There is a total air of disbelief with most of the divers up here. Scott was the most experienced diver we ever knew. He was soooo confident and competent. BTS this weekend is going to be a sombre place for many.

I can't imagine the grief for y'all. I hope and pray that all wreck divers will take this tragedy to heart and live by the lessons these men died to teach us.
Rick

 

[Manta]

There has been a lot of rumor and Monday morning quarterbacking on this story.

Allow me to address two issues:

1. Scott, Kevin and John were very experienced divers. I have dived with all of them many times and was instructed by Scott and Howard. John and I did our Asst. Instr. course together. They were risk averse safe divers. I believe that the accident was a horrible accident caused by over-confidence and a stupid attitude of invincibility.

2. What did not make the headlines...and here lies the real story and the real stupidity. Howard had an almost identical experience on the Spiegel Grove several months ago. He had dived the wreck and gotten horribly lost. He and two others penetrated the wreck, made it to the boiler room and found themselves silted up and in a major state of panic. He escaped (barely) and made back to the boat with his buddies with about 50lbs of air left. Definitely in violation when surfaced. He told me this story afterward. I was amazed and asked him why they did not lay a line. No response. And now this.

There is a total air of disbelief with most of the divers up here. Scott was the most experienced diver we ever knew. He was soooo confident and competent. BTS this weekend is going to be a sombre place for many.

I know Scott and Howard personally and have dove with Scott numerous times....I will miss Scott very much.

My last dive with the both of them was about a year ago. Howard....is a very nice guy, a lot of dives under his belt...Doria, 869 etc in my opinon was an accident waiting to happen. So much so I decided to do a solo dive on the Stolt (130ft) solo rather than dive with him. This is not to slander him, but I can see him getting lost and in a silt out.

I again am pained by the loss of Scott and the other divers as well. It is a sad situation. I hope that there is no legal recourse to the dive operator...in my opinion he is a taxi.

I make my comments only out of my knowlege in diving with Howard and Scott.

Scott was a great guy and a great proponent for the dive industry.....He was a very good diver. I will miss him much.

Thank you
Greg

 

[chachita]

My perspective:
The biggest gotcha is silt behind you. With that in mind, a swim-through where you can see the exit before you enter, and you can see the route is clear of entangling wires, lines etc, and there are no hindrances to a freeswimming passage to open water all the way, that's ok. Likewise, if you can see the next exit and a clear passage before you pass the first one you could see, then you can safely continue. If you can't see the exit ahead, it isn't a swimthrough and all the rules of wreck penetration apply. As I mentioned earlier, one of Ricky's Rules for Recks is an ability to exit with eyes closed.
I cannot adequately express how incredibly easy it is to get disoriented and turned around in a siltout. It can be total and immediate, and within just a very few feet of the entrance. I've attached a writeup from DrMike that he posted a couple of years ago over on the Deco Stop that should be mandatory reading for anyone contemplating wreck penetration, however slight!
Rick

Rick, Thank you for your informative answer and for the sobering article. You can never be too careful...

 

[akbpilot]

Steve P

Your comment is slightly off the topic since these guys definitely were not being led by a 'paid' divemaster supplied by the charter service. However, it is very valid and thought-provoking point about overhead environments/charters/divemasters. Also, brings up some Coz memories for me.

I was there back in the 90s and the divemasters/charters I used would routinely take OW divers(like myself at the time) through u/w tunnels, swim thrus and the like. They'd just point and we'd go one at a time. I wonder if they still do that...with the threat of litigation...probably not. I also remember the divemaster never asked for my C-card either. Just asked me where I learned how to dive. When I told him New England, he just waved his hand at me and said you're all set, grab some gear! Wow!

LobstaMan

Yes they do. Mexico is not at all like the US litigation-wise.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have been following this thread for several days and have read every post regarding this very tragic accident but, until now, have not posted a reply.

I dived the S.G. a few weeks ago. Since this was my first dive on her I chose a dive op. that included a divemaster. I was also travelling alone and prefer having an experienced divemaster as a buddy in this situation. The diver master lead me and another diver through an upper deck passage. I didn't think much of this since there were clearly visible openings along the route we travelled through. I also noticed there were "permanent" lines secured in this passage. Upon exiting we waited a bit for the other diver to come through. The DM questioned me as to where the other diver was (though we were not paired as a buddy team). I swam over the top of the wreck back to the original opening we entered and located the other diver who was not lost or in any distress. While I did have a few general concerns about the way the dive was lead I never felt that I put myself at risk by doing the upper deck penetration. Seems like there may be other opionions about what is considered safe or prudent in this situation.

While I'm advanced diver (by certification) I have not had any formal training in diving wrecks or in overhead environments (caves, caverns). I did not carry a reel or redundant air supply.

However, it seems be a common practice for dive ops. to lead divers through swim throughs and into wrecks where means of egress is clearly identified. I have witnessed this in many locations during the past 20 years. I realize that we are responsible for our own safety and I could have refused to enter the wreck, but this practice seems to be "standard operating procedure" by many dive ops. I only post this since I have not read much here regarding this practice of "recreational" penetration of overhead environments by untrained divers. Like myself. Is there an understanding in the dive community that this practice is acceptable if the dive is lead by a DM or do we have divers sign a waiver agreeing to not enter in an overhead environment and then lead the way into a wreck and see if the divers follow?

Lots of things are common but they aren't all smart. There are lots of threads on the board concerning this topic and if you look them up you'll see that there is no "understanding in the dive community that it's acceptable". From my own observation, those that think it's acceptable tend to be the ones with no overhead training and just don't realize what can go wrong...and the ones who get paid to do it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

My perspective:
The biggest gotcha is silt behind you. With that in mind, a swim-through where you can see the exit before you enter, and you can see the route is clear of entangling wires, lines etc, and there are no hindrances to a freeswimming passage to open water all the way, that's ok. Likewise, if you can see the next exit and a clear passage before you pass the first one you could see, then you can safely continue. If you can't see the exit ahead, it isn't a swimthrough and all the rules of wreck penetration apply. As I mentioned earlier, one of Ricky's Rules for Recks is an ability to exit with eyes closed.
I cannot adequately express how incredibly easy it is to get disoriented and turned around in a siltout. It can be total and immediate, and within just a very few feet of the entrance. I've attached a writeup from DrMike that he posted a couple of years ago over on the Deco Stop that should be mandatory reading for anyone contemplating wreck penetration, however slight!
Rick

I don't know what they teach in technical wreck training but I know what they teach in cave training. A huge percentage of the training in focused on being able to get out..and yes, without being able to see. No mask exits, no light exits, touch contact with line and buddy, air sharing exits, finding a lost line, finding a lost buddy.

Even with a line, getting out with no vis or an equipment failure may not go so smooth unless it has been learned and practiced. Even then there are plenty of ways to screw it up. At best, it may very well require more gas then going in. I'm sure there are exceptions but, IME, siltouts don't usually happen where the traveling is easy. That makes it that much harder to navigate once vis is lost.

It doesn't take much knowledge or skill to swim into an overhead and swim back out when nothing goes wrong. For that matter, it doesn't take much skill to go deep for a while and swim back up.

Silt outs and equipment failures are going to happen. We see them in open water. If you dive overheads, you will see them there too.

 

[fisherdvm]

I think this demonstrate well the saying "Do as I say, and not as I do". Why do you suppose doctors are frequently the ones with advanced prostate cancers, and other preventable diseases? They don't take care of themselves.

In the same way, advanced divers make the same mistakes that newbies do. That is why it is frequently quoted by DAN and others that as many tech divers as newbies dies each year from diving accidents. We should all learn that we are beginners and can not totally trust our skill and gears....

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think this demonstrate well the saying "Do as I say, and not as I do". Why do you suppose doctors are frequently the ones with advanced prostate cancers, and other preventable diseases? They don't take care of themselves.

In the same way, advanced divers make the same mistakes that newbies do. That is why it is frequently quoted by DAN and others that as many tech divers as newbies dies each year from diving accidents. We should all learn that we are beginners and can not totally trust our skill and gears....

You don't have to be new to diving to be new to the kind of diving that you're doing or to the situation that you're in.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

2. What did not make the headlines...and here lies the real story and the real stupidity. Howard had an almost identical experience on the Spiegel Grove several months ago. He had dived the wreck and gotten horribly lost. He and two others penetrated the wreck, made it to the boiler room and found themselves silted up and in a major state of panic. He escaped (barely) and made back to the boat with his buddies with about 50lbs of air left. Definitely in violation when surfaced. He told me this story afterward. I was amazed and asked him why they did not lay a line. No response. And now this.

I have read the whole thread and this comment just really stopped me in my tracks this morning. It just seemed to shout and scream off the page at me. Even as I have read it a couple of times over it just keeps screaming back at me. I just don't know what to say if this statement is indeed true and I have no reason to doubt tridacna is telling us the truth.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Rick, Thank you for your informative answer and for the sobering article. You can never be too careful...

I was just remembering an incident this morning that's another interesting (though unusual) "thing" about wrecks. A few years ago Tom Smedley was trying to get a picture of a fish that was swimming in and out of a hatch located on top of a small room on the Pete Tide, an artificial reef/wreck off Pensacola. Every time he'd get the fish lined up she'd swim back into the opening and he'd miss the shot. I could tell he was getting a little frustrated, and thought I could help by going into the room, thereby giving the fish a reason to stay out of it. It was a small room and I could see the hatch in the overhead from the doorway... as I started into the room I did my usual "silt check" to see if my bubbles were dislodging any significant silt in the overhead.
Well... my bubbles were dislodging something alright, but it wasn't silt! Raining down on me were dozens of the biggest fireworms I'd ever seen in my life! I set a "personal best" at backfinning out of there, I can guarantee!
Don't know if Tommy ever got his picture or not
Rick