3 Divers lost on the Spiegel Grove

[Walter]

Why must it be one or the other? Why not both?

You can combine the two, but the basic idea of progressive penetration is to memorize the wreck and NOT use a reel.

 

[Steve P]

Every time I have dove the Grove, I have carried a reel, light, and a 30 cu ft. redundant air source. Some might see these as tools for a penetration. Yet I have no intentions of penetrating the Grove, and in ten dives on the wreck, I have not even done the upper deck swimthroughs where you can see daylight on the other side. These are merely safety tools for a deep wreck, where currents can be strong.

I fear that after this accident, many of us are going to be harassed by Key Largo dive operators for carrying what are important safety tools simply because the captains are super paranoid of liability from people penetrating the wreck.

However any operator who attempts to prevent me from diving with reels, lights, extra gas, etc. will, in addition to losing my business, also receive lots of free publicity on ScubaBoard.

I have been following this thread for several days and have read every post regarding this very tragic accident but, until now, have not posted a reply.

I dived the S.G. a few weeks ago. Since this was my first dive on her I chose a dive op. that included a divemaster. I was also travelling alone and prefer having an experienced divemaster as a buddy in this situation. The diver master lead me and another diver through an upper deck passage. I didn't think much of this since there were clearly visible openings along the route we travelled through. I also noticed there were "permanent" lines secured in this passage. Upon exiting we waited a bit for the other diver to come through. The DM questioned me as to where the other diver was (though we were not paired as a buddy team). I swam over the top of the wreck back to the original opening we entered and located the other diver who was not lost or in any distress. While I did have a few general concerns about the way the dive was lead I never felt that I put myself at risk by doing the upper deck penetration. Seems like there may be other opionions about what is considered safe or prudent in this situation.

While I'm advanced diver (by certification) I have not had any formal training in diving wrecks or in overhead environments (caves, caverns). I did not carry a reel or redundant air supply.

However, it seems be a common practice for dive ops. to lead divers through swim throughs and into wrecks where means of egress is clearly identified. I have witnessed this in many locations during the past 20 years. I realize that we are responsible for our own safety and I could have refused to enter the wreck, but this practice seems to be "standard operating procedure" by many dive ops. I only post this since I have not read much here regarding this practice of "recreational" penetration of overhead environments by untrained divers. Like myself. Is there an understanding in the dive community that this practice is acceptable if the dive is lead by a DM or do we have divers sign a waiver agreeing to not enter in an overhead environment and then lead the way into a wreck and see if the divers follow?

 

[lamont]

Again, wait for the accident anaysis. you make suppositions but you don't really know happened. wait for the analysis!

that's like waiting for godot.

unless someone close to the accident steps up, we've got about the best information that the public is going to get on this accident already...

 

[chachita]

Steve P you raise an important point.

When doing my AOR in Curacao, we dove the wreck of the Superior Producer, a 240-foot freighter lying at 110/120 feet. While not huge, the wreck has many areas and compartments and you could be diving on one side and not see people in other areas. Many of the areas have openings and windows to the outside, but some of the internal sections are less open/accessible.

During the dive we [7 students and 2 dive masters] swam through the various areas and compartments without using lines, supplementary lights or any other special wreck diving techniques. Yet we never felt we were in any danger or risk and we could easily exit the wreck at any point.

The Superior Producer is one of the most popular dives in Curacao and everyone swims through like we did.

Like Steve, I'd like to know: where do you draw the line?

 

[diver 85]

Chachita, take the word easily out of your 2nd paragraph & IMO you've answered your own Q.....

 

[wfin2004]

Dammit... Any word on what outfit they were diving with?

I have been on the "Scuba Do" many times. Just the average 32' Dive boat. My Buddy and I have been going to that dive boat for some years now. Can't remember why we chose them in the first place. It seemed like a well run outfit and I am sure it still is. IMHO I think the Captain should have called off the dive if he had any word of the intentions.

 

[ccso434]

Having completed a Cavern class, the most important thing to remember in all diving, dive your to your training level. When you go into overhead and penetration, it's a whole new world. In the class, we snuffed our lights at 80 feet and the whole dive changed. When the lights came back, it made me know the importance of using the right gear for each and every dive. My heart goes out to the families of the of the lost divers.

 

[Missdirected]

About your 1st statement, the article does not state these guys did not cut the chain, it only states it was not done on this dive..............................................."In the report, Coleman said that Spialter admitted the group did not use proper safety equipment. He also said they had ventured into a hatch that had been chained to keep divers out.

The chain was cut, but investigators said it had been done previous to Friday's accident"


We might never know who cut the chain....

Clarification:

No those particular article's did not reference the chain. I was not using those articles as reference to the chain. Hence, why I said if memory serves me (I was going by another report).

The reports I listed were to show Andy that the words "Pump Room" and "off limits area" keep getting repeated.

CAPNJACK, thank you for your post. May I ask if you know anything about the Pump Room? If in fact it is an off-limits area. Thanking you in advance.

 

[LobstaMan]

Steve P

Your comment is slightly off the topic since these guys definitely were not being led by a 'paid' divemaster supplied by the charter service. However, it is very valid and thought-provoking point about overhead environments/charters/divemasters. Also, brings up some Coz memories for me.

I was there back in the 90s and the divemasters/charters I used would routinely take OW divers(like myself at the time) through u/w tunnels, swim thrus and the like. They'd just point and we'd go one at a time. I wonder if they still do that...with the threat of litigation...probably not. I also remember the divemaster never asked for my C-card either. Just asked me where I learned how to dive. When I told him New England, he just waved his hand at me and said you're all set, grab some gear! Wow!

LobstaMan

 

[Buoyant1]

You can combine the two, but the basic idea of progressive penetration is to memorize the wreck and NOT use a reel.

And that makes sense, but did these poor guys have enough time on this wreck to go THAT DEEP into it? In the case someone brought up of Chatterton and the Doria previously as an example, I'm sure he didn't go three decks deep on his second or third dive on it...

Shadow Divers illustrates his progression into the U-869..it wasn't a "few" dives.

I feel so bad for these guys, but this was so preventable...

20/20 hindsight!