3 Divers lost on the Spiegel Grove

[J.R.]

Every year, about a dozen boys are killed playing high school football...imagine your son dies on the field and the only responses you get are

1) well, it's a high risk sport, he knew what he was getting in to
2) every player is responsible for his own mistakes, we just bus them to the game
3) you signed a waiver
4) people are free to die playing a game if they want
5) hey, don't be quick to judge us! wait til the facts are in (but we won't tell them to anyone anyway and wait until the whole thing blows over).
6) don't call deaths in high school as unacceptable, that's too idealistic and strong a word! death is always going to happen!

I think I understand your question... but would ask, "Which of the above statements are untrue in ANY way?" Maybe the issue is that we can think it, understand it and believe it... but we just aren't supposed to say it?

 

[HowardE]

My use of word "unacceptable" means the goal we should strive for...perfection is not achievable in any human endeavor, but that doesn't mean we should "accept" death as a natural consequence of recreational sports.

No team wins every game, but I still prefer to hire a coach who views losing as unacceptable.

Every year, about a dozen boys are killed playing high school football...imagine your son dies on the field and the only responses you get are

1) well, it's a high risk sport, he knew what he was getting in to
2) every player is responsible for his own mistakes, we just bus them to the game
3) you signed a waiver
4) people are free to die playing a game if they want
5) hey, don't be quick to judge us! wait til the facts are in (but we won't tell them to anyone anyway and wait until the whole thing blows over)
6) don't call deaths in high school as unacceptable, that's too idealistic and strong a word! death is always going to happen!

Any scuba instructor who doesn't view death as unacceptable...well, it is like a flight instructor who doesn't view crashing as unacceptable. If that isn't the goal --- zero fatalities --- then there is something amiss.

You seem to continually confuse the issue - comparing SCUBA to other activities where death is not a possibility every time. The truth is. SCUBA has risks. We as safe divers can mitigate these risks with procedures and safety equipment. Why do you expect so much from instructors, and operators. It is impossible to prevent people from NOT FOLLOWING safety procedures, and increasing their own risk of death.

If it is more guidance you seek, then pay for a guide or chaperon. If you are diving by yourself (or with a buddy) then assume your own risks, and don't blame other people for your own mistakes.

 

[Boatlawyer]

It will be interesting to learn why they went in where they did. Reports suggest that entires which were not supposed to be used by divers had the hatches welded shut.

I thought I read that after Hurricane Dennis, when SG righted itself, divers made sure it was safe to dive. I wonder if the opening they chose was available because of the righting.

If the other unsafe openings were in fact welded shut, but this one, for some reason, was not, then it may have been reasonable for the divers to assume it had been prepared with cut outs and alternate exits, which may go a long way in explaining why they didn't use reels or appropriate stage tanks.

 

[Bonuss]

Thanks for your replies to this subject, I am sure it must be a sensitive one since you knew the divers in question.

However, the reports that are out so far seem to point to the fact that they were diving singles and without a line, so it is not a conclusion that people are jumping to, but a discussion of the limited facts we have been presented with so far. Any light you can shed upon the incident is appreciated.

Not flaming, just a comment.. the "reports", are just that, and some seem a little early given the timing of the situation. The Dectives public statement stikes my as somewhat conclusive so early on... more a personal opinnion based on "reports". His first statement that they had no plan does not ring true with their experience level, and reports from their peers. Once I loose confidence in a portion of his statement, the rest is more questionable in my mind. (just mine, I'm not "selling" it) It seems to me there is too much speculation on many peoples part. There will be an official COD, but there will also be many unknowns.

I suppose it is good for an official statement for Key Largo to point out that scuba deaths can be attributed to the individuals choices. But those statements at that time appeared somewhat heavy handed.

Bob in CO
(on the Grove in the Past 3 mo.)

 

[PerroneFord]

The Dectives public statement stikes my as somewhat conclusive so early on... more a personal opinnion based on "reports". His first statement that they had no plan does not ring true with their experience level, and reports from their peers.

It could be argued that putting 3 divers inside a wreck, below 60ft, on AL80s with no staged bottles along the way, constitues "no plan".

 

[AXL72]

But should that right end at putting others in harms way to come and....recover your remains? Should waivers should include "do not rescue or recover my remains" language? Inquiring minds want to know.

Damnit!! Let me teach you something about engineering and diving.

Put others at risk?? Hogwash.

Shoot, you can build skyscrapers in the swamps of Florida if you throw enough money at it!!!


1. Have you not heard of torches to open up the area of the ship where the bodies are suspected in order to pull em out safely???? Torches can be used to reeseal the ship at the cut location.


2. Have you not heard of saturation diving? The state should throw $120,000 or $300,000 to send a team of three divers in a diving atmosphere that can be recovered and attached to a decompression (not recompression) chamber on the deck of a commercial diving vessel after the bodies are recovered.

The team can have a two diver team with umbilical supplied air from the surface with surface communications wiring go through the deck and get the bodies. That way the torches wont ugly up the ship or make a tempting entrance to other divers.

3. Somone say putting lives at danger to recover the bodies?? hahahaha. There are safer ways, albeit expensive, to recover the bodies. No one has to be uinsafe or put at risk to recover bodies. Do it the right and safe way, dangit.

Think outside the box

Concerned about safety are ya? Well throw the right money at the prblem to do it safely. No excuses! Safety First....pocketbook second

 

[Bonuss]

It could be argued that putting 3 divers inside a wreck, below 60ft, on AL80s with no staged bottles along the way, constitues "no plan".

I concur if that turns out to be what really happened.

Bob in CO

 

[dumpsterDiver]

... I have also heard that Scott made it back to Howard - gripped his hand and then backed off into the wreck again.

That is very sad. If the stories are true about them having stage bottles outside of the wreck, then wouldn't he have grabbed at least one stage bottle to take to the divers, unless he felt the penetration distance was very short? It sounds that we know what killed "Scott", an heroic attempt to save his buddies.

 

[AXL72]

I wholeheartedly agree and would take it a step further. Isn't it just another form of "victimization" to expect people to rescue you when you've made poor choices or exceeded your limits? (disclaimer: this is not a judgment of the accident in question, because those facts aren't in yet).

OK....so, you do not want me to rescue u from a burning car crash after you decided to drive on a two lane highway around 10 pm when u get hit by an oncoming drunk driver?

 

[AXL72]

The way it works here is any death is treated as a crime scene until proven otherwise. That fact alone means you cant waive your right to be recovered.

I agree. The state needs to know whether the air of the others was turned off or if anything else looks suspicious to rule ot foul play(ie murder). The officials are doing their damn job.

Crime scene!!

Kudos to String!!!!