3 Divers lost on the Spiegel Grove

[tridacna]

Everyone:

I knew these guys personally. Scott was a good friend. He was my instructor for Search and Rescue. John and I did our Assistant Instructor's courses together. I dove with Kevin many times.

Scott was the best diver I ever met. We used to joke that he breathed slower than most fish. He was a fantastic person and I spoke to him last week in NJ before he left for Florida.

What was interesting was that the fourth diver never penetrated the wreck. He was my open water instructor and I know him quite well. I think that I know why he never went in. I will be speaking to him this week to confirm my suspicions.

Let me state this quite clearly:

These guys were serious divers. To answer a previously posed question, I never saw them dive without doubles. They seldom took unnecessary risks. They were all experienced tech divers. Scott had close to 5000 dives (if not more) with many trips to the Doria. (And the Spiegel Grove).

I will add more info as I learn.

 

[LobstaMan]

What is the point of leaving a so-called 'safety diver' outside the wreck where the other three divers entered if those divers didn't run a line or reel or something(from Mr. Frink's post it seems they didn't) so the outside diver could find which way they went? Could a diver with wreck pentretration training and experience tell me what the proper procedures are? Do you use a safety diver and/or a dive reel or line?

LobstaMan

 

[tridacna]

There should be dive law that if you go into wreck/cave/etc etc you must use rope (dive reel) there is just no excuse what-so-ever if you been in the business long anough you to have heard/known smoeone die due to it. Unless you know the wreck/cave/etc like the back of your hand and if this is true that the divers here did not bring ropes then I really feel sorry such ashame and the sad thing one of the divers who was not in charge problay had no idea what was going on until the end again sorry for lose if anyone knew these divers.

Always descending,
C.H.

PMJI I dived with these guys many times. I knew them well. I never saw them dive without Jersey reels. Ever. Let's not jump to conclusions.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

My use of word "unacceptable" means the goal we should strive for...perfection is not achievable in any human endeavor, but that doesn't mean we should "accept" death as a natural consequence of recreational sports.

No team wins every game, but I still prefer to hire a coach who views losing as unacceptable.

Every year, about a dozen boys are killed playing high school football...imagine your son dies on the field and the only responses you get are

1) well, it's a high risk sport, he knew what he was getting in to
2) every player is responsible for his own mistakes, we just bus them to the game
3) you signed a waiver
4) people are free to die playing a game if they want
5) hey, don't be quick to judge us! wait til the facts are in (but we won't tell them to anyone anyway and wait until the whole thing blows over)
6) don't call deaths in high school as unacceptable, that's too idealistic and strong a word! death is always going to happen!

Any scuba instructor who doesn't view death as unacceptable...well, it is like a flight instructor who doesn't view crashing as unacceptable. If that isn't the goal --- zero fatalities --- then there is something amiss.

 

[tridacna]

They were from South Jersey, like me. They showed pictures of thim (ID photos) and two looked familier, but I can not say that we knew them. We have not had the chance to dive the SG yet, but we do know that a penetration dive at that depth is too risky for our skill level.

What a tragedy. Such an early reminder in the season to be conservative, and play safe.

They were NOT from South Jersey. They were from Chatham, East Hanover and Westfield. We used to dive at Treasure Cove in Westfield, NJ then subsequently moved to East Hanover. I think that they would bristle at being called South Jersey divers.

 

[NadMat]

PMJI I dived with these guys many times. I knew them well. I never saw them dive without Jersey reels. Ever. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Thanks for your replies to this subject, I am sure it must be a sensitive one since you knew the divers in question.

However, the reports that are out so far seem to point to the fact that they were diving singles and without a line, so it is not a conclusion that people are jumping to, but a discussion of the limited facts we have been presented with so far. Any light you can shed upon the incident is appreciated.

 

[tedwhiteva]

What is the point of leaving a so-called 'safety diver' outside the wreck where the other three divers entered if those divers didn't run a line or reel or something(from Mr. Frink's post it seems they didn't) so the outside diver could find which way they went? Could a diver with wreck pentretration training and experience tell me what the proper procedures are? Do you use a safety diver and/or a dive reel or line?

LobstaMan

Reports are the reel line broke

 

[PerroneFord]

Any scuba instructor who doesn't view death as unacceptable...well, it is like a flight instructor who doesn't view crashing as unacceptable. If that isn't the goal --- zero fatalities --- then there is something amiss.

And yet agencies institutionlize this concept, and perpetually undertrain divers. And as divers, we buy it and smile. And when a couple of agencies step out of the mold, and REALLY begin to train people they are called dogmatic and rigid. And we make fun of their methods, and their divers.

I know my view may not be popular, but quite frankly, these guys apparently broke every rule in the book and ran out of talent. Some reports say their reel broke. Sheriff's report is that there was no reel. Would have been easy to find for the investigators. Should have been able to see the line tied off at the door.. On single tanks, they should have stayed out of the wreck. Dive plan was broken before they suited up.

 

[tridacna]

Thanks for your replies to this subject, I am sure it must be a sensitive one since you knew the divers in question.

However, the reports that are out so far seem to point to the fact that they were diving singles and without a line, so it is not a conclusion that people are jumping to, but a discussion of the limited facts we have been presented with so far. Any light you can shed upon the incident is appreciated.

I will absolutely get the facts later. Scott always dived with a line. He dived almost every weekend in NJ. (Weather permitting). He was the friendliest and most helpful guy you ever met. I would be astounded if they did not run a line. Who knows. I have read a report that claimed that a broken line was found. I have also heard that Scott made it back to Howard - gripped his hand and then backed off into the wreck again.

 

[daniel f aleman]

Originally Posted by shakeybrainsurgeon
"Any scuba instructor who doesn't view death as unacceptable...well, it is like a flight instructor who doesn't view crashing as unacceptable. If that isn't the goal --- zero fatalities --- then there is something amiss."

And yet agencies institutionlize this concept, and perpetually undertrain divers.

This is false.

And as divers, we buy it and smile.

If you "smile" at what you consider mediocre instruction, that's your problem.