200' on air for 5 min bottom time?

[danvolker]

Since we have diverged far off the topic of 200 feet into ridiculous depths.... how about this guy?

Almost did 800 feet on one breath?

Herbert Nitsch Talks About His Fateful Dive and Recovery | DeeperBlue.com

And this was an example of ABSOLUTE STUPID as well.....The Grim Reaper must have been on a coffee break...

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

Very sad accident.

 

[DaleC]

Why do you have to bring the next of kin into a public forum?
Many yrs ago there was a British female climber lost her life in climbing Everest. She left couple of children behind and the media had a field day.
So are you suggesting that every married person should find a nice and easy 9-5 job and leave the fun for the unattached?

Good question which actually addresses something. I recall the case above and disagreed with the coverage at the time... but I am not the media.

Last point first:

No, I have been with my wife for 23 years and have 3 kids. I also solo dive in cold, dark, low vis conditions every week. But I do think about the impact my activities have on my family and don't just do things in a reckless manner with no regard for the outcome.

First point second:

Should we bring the subject of next of kin in when discussing risky dives? What an interesting topic for a separate thread. What do you think: Is the impact of our decisions on them worthy of consideration?

My intention was not to slag Shaw. From my perspective he was a competent diver who got caught by the very small envelope that such dives allow for dealing with issues. Period. I could pick apart his plan to try and learn something but that's all it would be "picking apart". I think overall, this is the nature of extreme diving and as long as one goes into it eyes open, it's that persons risk to either accept or reject.

I think he accepted the risk as the dive had enough intrinsic value to him. I think his wife may have accepted his decision (because that is the type of person he was) but I doubt she thought it was worth it. Most people don't (from an external risk vs reward POV). Many believe it was worth it personally (from a following ones passion POV). I fall into the latter camp. I also think he did these dives in a very public way (as others do) so it is within reason to discuss them publicly... but that's about as far as I intended that example to go.

Now, how does my point about the Shaw example tie into the context of our discussion:

• A newer diver saw some guys on a video dive to 200' for the express purpose of signing a slate that shows they dove to 200' and thought that looked pretty neat so he asked a question about it. My response to him would be:

• In that case there isn't any real reason to do that dive - other than to do it. The value is intrinsic (personal). Realistically decide how much that is worth both to you and your family.

• The dive comes with some real risk, especially if done the way it was on the video.

• You can mitigate the risk in several ways (redundant systems, training to use mix, training to use air, training to solo, training to team dive). Doing a "trust me" dive like the guys on the video is simply relying on luck.

• When you look at how much time and money to invest in your risk mitigation, and which course you will consider, think about the impact to you and your family. They also will bear the weight of your decisions.

Call me an idiot if you want, but I don't think that's such crazy advice - or using Dave Shaw's legacy in a negative way.

 

[Jared0425]

We are not talking about David Shaw, what we are discussing is what it takes to go down 200' on air. That list that was posted above shows a series of divers who lost their lives while doing deep air or experimental gas dives. Now I think we all agree that anything past 225' on air is really adding unnecessary risk to the diver, at least here in the lakes where it is dark and cold (I cannot speak for ocean divers). The fact of the matter remains that deaths happen all throughout the spectrum of diving due to one mistake or another. I will defend (and dive) deep air up to a certain point. Those mentioned on the list above show people who tried to break records on air and paid the ultimate price for it. You would not catch me going down to 400' on air, not even 250' on my very best day. We have talked about handling narcosis, what equipment you need, the deco required, the experience that is needed, why it is a good or bad idea, on and on and on. So we can we move on to something else like drinking and diving or how to make a new canister light out of lexan tube?

 

[DCBC]

Since we have diverged far off the topic of 200 feet into ridiculous depths.... how about this guy?

Almost did 800 feet on one breath?

Herbert Nitsch Talks About His Fateful Dive and Recovery | DeeperBlue.com

"I did reach the record depth of 818.6 feet (249.5 meters), however, on the way back to the surface I lost consciousness due to narcosis (a first in free diving)."

Narcosis doesn't cause you to lose consciousness. He likely blacked-out due to Hypoxia of Ascent. What a "aqua maroon." ....

 

[danvolker]

DC,
On one dive we did around 1994, I was with a few well known tech and cave divers.....the one I was buddied with and I, got a drop to a wreck in about 260 feet of depth, that was a poor drop, and we found ourselves far beyond the desired touchdown point, and having to get belly to the bottom, and swim and crawl up-current to reach the wreck..... As a competitive cyclist, this was easy for me to do without anything that felt like a workload, and did not seem to be causing a problem for my buddy....but after about 3 minutes of this, and his swimming at no longer the correct direction to reach the wreck--about 4 feet ahead of me--I began to suspect something was wrong with him....and his swimming speed had reached a high rate of speed for the conditions and depth....since he did not look back at me, as was the norm, by 5 minutes I was certain that he had essentially fallen asleep while still swimming....so I increased my speed as much as possible, without feeling like I might begin building up CO2, and utlimately caught his swim fin with my hand in another minute or so....I grabbed hard, pulled hard, and stopped his swimming....he looked back at me, with a "with kind of a blank look"--not pissed, not really questioning....I pointed to the wreck we were not headed for, 30 degrees off our heading, and to our computers, because now much time had been wasted, as well as air...and pointed to the surface....and he replied with an OK sign, and then proceeded upward at a "normal pace", and was fine for the rest of the dive..... because this buddy was one of the more prominent divers of the day, I did not discuss this with him on the boat, and never really discussed this with anyone.... prior to this, Frank Hammet had told me of a dive he had done in Cayman in the mid-60's, where had had gone to 350, and had realized he had fallen asleep while swimming, then suddenly seen he had been down a long time, and headed up quickly....this was what I was imagining was going in , but I would be interested in hearing your take on it...?

 

[Centrals]

I repeat, Dave Shaw should not be used as an example of a diver to look up too. He broke so many rules, taking his first rebreather past depths that the manufacturer said would lead to items breaking (and they did), diving to his deepest depths when using new multiple bits of new equipment (rather than testing first). He was a pilot of large passenger jets, did he do this on his planes as well? I would guess he did.

I should have made it clearer, all they had to do once he found the body was to add some flotation to the drop line that was connected to the body and it probably would have come up. Even if it did not, he should have simply attached a new line to the body's BCD and then later it could have been hauled up via that.

With hindsight nobody will ever make any mistake!
How could Capt Shaw test any new equipment to a depth where it had never been exposed before? Yes, he was a pilot trainer of A340 at Cathay Pacific. Please do not speculate what he did when he flied a commerical plane. At least CX was pretty happy with it.
I do not know anything about body recovery but I am pretty sure by using your suggestion methods, you will only bring up part of the body.

---------- Post added June 9th, 2013 at 09:44 AM ----------

....Call me an idiot if you want, but I don't think that's such crazy advice - or using Dave Shaw's legacy in a negative way.

Why should I?
We are all entitled to our own opinion. But I will leave the family behind.

 

[DCBC]

DC, ...Frank Hammet had told me of a dive he had done in Cayman in the mid-60's, where had had gone to 350, and had realized he had fallen asleep while swimming, then suddenly seen he had been down a long time, and headed up quickly....this was what I was imagining was going in , but I would be interested in hearing your take on it...?

There's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Is Frank still drift diving? The last time I heard about him was many years ago; he seemed just to disappear.

IGN does seem to have a depressive effect on the brain. As the affects of Narcosis are so variable and difficult to understand it's hard to say how it will affect any particular individual. I wouldn't think that sleep would be likely, but who knows. The only time that Narcosis put me to sleep was when I was working on a IGN related paper while at university...

 

[danvolker]

There's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Is Frank still drift diving? The last time I heard about him was many years ago; he seemed just to disappear.

IGN does seem to have a depressive effect on the brain. As the affects of Narcosis are so variable and difficult to understand it's hard to say how it will affect any particular individual. I wouldn't think that sleep would be likely, but who knows. The only time that Narcosis put me to sleep was when I was working on a IGN related paper while at university...

Frank is still alive and well, but his knees are shot for diving now....I think he is close to 90 now....He was diving into his 70's.....
I dove with him almost every week from the early 80's to late 90's Aside being fun to dive with, and a great spearfisherman, he had stories that would have made Ernest Hemingway listen endlessly. Stories about diving in the mid 50's when Frank began diving, when the eco-system was bigger, when the wilderness was still wilderness

 

[shoredivr]

Brett Gilliam mentions divers falling asleep at depths past 300 in the "Deep Diving" book. These divers are not reported as having traditional Ox Tox symptoms of seizures, rather they just drifted off to sleep, then recovered either on the way up by themselves or with another diver helping them up. Not sure where these fit into...oxtox or CO2?

One other diver was found with the regulator in his mouth just like he had nodded off to sleep on the Promenade Deck, IIRC on one of the many Andrea Dorea dives covered by either Gary Gentile or Bernie Chowdhury.