Taking an open water student below 60 ft?

[yle]

I don't recall repeating OOA situation in Rescue, but maybe we did.
Anyway....IMHO there are some very important Rescue Course skills that should be in the OW course. Now, I will also say that I also have not had occasion to perform a rescue, though that's not surprising in that the vast majority of my diving has been solo, particularly the last 10 years of my 15 total. I did do a tired diver tow once while assisting an OW course.
The skills that should be included in OW are IMO--
--dealing with a panicked diver on the surface. I recall the total OW training here is to paraphrase "establish positive buoyancy". I may ask what the method(s) are for doing that safely.
--panicked diver at depth.
--unconscious diver at depth -- check him out, bring to surface correctly. I know, he's probably dead, but...
--giving inwater rescue breaths.
--removing equipment and giving breaths while towing (and when to remove it or not).
--dealing with a runaway ascent (or descent). This probably is more common than you'd think, at least from what I read.
--missing diver.
--near drowning.

I do agree in that the chances of actually using this knowledge is very slim (though with enough diving with others, and of course in the case of pros the chances increases a lot I would assume).

I 100% agree that those are all useful skills for a diver to have, which is why I have always (and I think most divers also) strongly recommend the Rescue Diver course. But the purpose of the OW course is not to provide all the skills a diver might possibly need in their diving career. It is designed to give people the skills they need to be safe and competent divers, and to provide a foundation on which to build their diving skills.

Consider a diver who will only go on one or two dive trips a year, and will only dive with a shop that provides DMs in the water and plenty of support on the boat. Is it reasonable that we tell this diver "you can't dive unless you know how to rescue an unconscious diver from depth, provide rescue breaths in-water and perform CPR once you remove the victim from the water!" Why would this "vacation diver" ever need those skills? You might say "well... he might! There could be a one-in-a-million scenario where he is called on to rescue someone like this." But if we insist that our vacation diver take the training to prepare him for the one-in-a-million scenario, he'll likely just skip diving altogether.

People are different. Some people, like us, want to get all the knowledge we can possibly gain about what we're doing (e.g. diving) and then acknowledge there is always more to learn. We want to be overprepared, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean that everyone has to be like us.

 

[TMHeimer]

I 100% agree that those are all useful skills for a diver to have, which is why I have always (and I think most divers also) strongly recommend the Rescue Diver course. But the purpose of the OW course is not to provide all the skills a diver might possibly need in their diving career. It is designed to give people the skills they need to be safe and competent divers, and to provide a foundation on which to build their diving skills.

Consider a diver who will only go on one or two dive trips a year, and will only dive with a shop that provides DMs in the water and plenty of support on the boat. Is it reasonable that we tell this diver "you can't dive unless you know how to rescue an unconscious diver from depth, provide rescue breaths in-water and perform CPR once you remove the victim from the water!" Why would this "vacation diver" ever need those skills? You might say "well... he might! There could be a one-in-a-million scenario where he is called on to rescue someone like this." But if we insist that our vacation diver take the training to prepare him for the one-in-a-million scenario, he'll likely just skip diving altogether.

People are different. Some people, like us, want to get all the knowledge we can possibly gain about what we're doing (e.g. diving) and then acknowledge there is always more to learn. We want to be overprepared, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean that everyone has to be like us.

As I've said, I've never been in a rescue situation (not likely diving solo). But I would figure that it's not a "one in a million" thing.
I've talked with instructors who have needed those skills in real life. To be honest, I don't think it's a matter of being overprepared.
Vacation divers: Could be doing a shore dive without all that support. Two newbies, once yearly diving, no rescue skills.
If learning these skills in OW causes them to skip diving altogether then I think that's a good idea. Then again, I have no real stake in the health of the dive industry other than getting air fills now. If our one shop closes I'll bite the bullet and buy a compressor and learn how to use it.
Let's not forget about the "non vacation" divers like us. Like me and my fellow OW cert. buddy doing all those dives by ourselves without all that boat & DM support before I took Rescue. And all those Florida boat dives I did back then with no DM in the water and always an "instabuddy".
Apparently these rescue skills used to be part of OW decades ago. I don't think as you say, "being like us" should be anything other than normal for any diver. I guess we just agree to disagree.

 

[Jcp2]

To the point, more useful to any person who interacts with other people (not just diving) would be the Heimlich maneuver and basic CPR. Yet that is not required for going to the mall.

 

[TMHeimer]

To the point, more useful to any person who interacts with other people (not just diving) would be the Heimlich maneuver and basic CPR. Yet that is not required for going to the mall.

Yes. I'm not saying it should be required to go to the mall. But I feel remiss in that I didn't know either of those things until age 52-- but who thinks about it? I continue to review my EFR (CPR) manual in case my wife is in need of it, not for my solo scuba diving.

 

[NAM001]

"Tired diver tow" is a required skill in PADI's OW course. I explain the utility of the skill, the various ways to tow a diver (and pros and cons of each), we practice it in the pool and the students repeat it in open water. I also emphasize to my students it is one skill that I frequently use as an instructor: we do a lot of beach diving, and towing a buddy (or student) through the surf zone (when they haven't yet put on fins, or have already taken fins off...) is pretty common.

Using a compass and maintaining proper depth are OW course skills. I'm not saying that all divers with OW cert cards can do these things... but they are required skills of the course. PADI also added SMB deployment as a required skill back in 2013. The students aren't required to deploy from depth, but they are required to deploy from either surface or depth and they are supposed to understand the importance of using a SMB.

There seems to be a big difference between what some instructors do in their OW courses, what some people remember (or just believe) to be part of the OW course, and what is actually required in the OW course. Unfortunately, too many people all too frequently confuse the first of these two for the last.

I think what you describe is acceptable. Especially if they stay above 60 ft. Most compass users i see say they were shown and that was it. I dont take show literally because I believe they implented the skill to some degree. My wife was told go out 15 seconds turn around come back and if it is dark you are under the dock. That may technically qualify as being taught but functionally it is forgotton the next day. Towing I find is about 50/50 as whether they even know what it is. Much is geographically driven. local lake divers dont get the whole ball of wax when it comes to training emphasis as the salt water divers do. Most new divers I work with have no clue what a buoy is or how to use one. The learniing is quite the comedy show. We work from platforms. I get them fixed to the platform ( no bulleting to teh surface) to start with so they can experience what happens durtring the fill process after several failures to get an erect surface buoy, they start to get the hang of it and how to adapt dynamically to get a minimal job done. that is quite a feat from a platform at 25' and a 4-6 foot sausage on a finger spool. We do several different sizes and types. learn the pros and cons of them. When they are done they have a better idea what their buying needs are. The small ones work the best for instruction but we discuss how small ones at 25 feet are like big ones at 60+ ft. HOw much air to fill with at any depth etc. We do a lot of exposure things. compass is usually a big time problem in technique. we work through it and they feel better about their abilities when they leave. Still a long way from mastering things but enouigh where they can practice on thier own.

 

[Catito]

Yes and that's why so many are concerned. Here is a graph of fatalities by level of training from 2016. Students are disproportionately represented. View attachment 555327

The N is 23. Not a great sample size for reaching conclusions. However, glad the number is not higher.1

Yes and that's why so many are concerned. Here is a graph of fatalities by level of training from 2016. Students are disproportionately represented. View attachment 555327

6 students out of 23 total. Disproportionate?

 

[yle]

Most compass users i see say they were shown and that was it. I dont take show literally because I believe they implented the skill to some degree. My wife was told go out 15 seconds turn around come back and if it is dark you are under the dock. That may technically qualify as being taught but functionally it is forgotton the next day.

Yeah, I don't get why compass use isn't emphasized by more instructors in OW class. I have my students do the required compass skill on dive 1. And I insist that they use their compass constantly during every dive: they check their compass heading every time they check their air, so they learn to mentally link the importance of both. The beach I use for a lot of our diving faces south, so my students always know from their compass heading whether they're heading shallower, deeper, or parallel to shore. And I like to think after four dives of consistent use that it's drilled into them.

 

[yle]

We do several different sizes and types. learn the pros and cons of them. When they are done they have a better idea what their buying needs are. The small ones work the best for instruction but we discuss how small ones at 25 feet are like big ones at 60+ ft. HOw much air to fill with at any depth etc. We do a lot of exposure things. compass is usually a big time problem in technique. we work through it and they feel better about their abilities when they leave. Still a long way from mastering things but enouigh where they can practice on thier own.

That's it: if students understand why a skill is important, and perform it well enough to continue practicing on their own... it's just what they really need from a certification class.

 

[NAM001]

That's it: if students understand why a skill is important, and perform it well enough to continue practicing on their own... it's just what they really need from a certification class.

I hate to say it but we are talking apples and oranges. too many classes cover items and do not even get them to the point that they can practice on thier own. Many class goals are to jump throught he hoops and CYA whle yo udeposite that check. If classes did thier job in many cases they would not (dont take this wrong) need me to fill in the holes in thier class. Im not saying that all instructors or even the vast majority fail to care about quality but it is also not a one in a thousand thing.

 

[NAM001]

Yeah, I don't get why compass use isn't emphasized by more instructors in OW class. I have my students do the required compass skill on dive 1. And I insist that they use their compass constantly during every dive: they check their compass heading every time they check their air, so they learn to mentally link the importance of both. The beach I use for a lot of our diving faces south, so my students always know from their compass heading whether they're heading shallower, deeper, or parallel to shore. And I like to think after four dives of consistent use that it's drilled into them.

And I think that is probably how it should work. You go in a lake on the east shore. no matter what happens if you need to get home you can go east to get to shore. That will not work in the ocean but if they can make the compass work they have the tools to expand either on thier own or through formal training to navigate under different conditions. NO OW student should be required to be good at navigation but a small portion is not unrealistic to expect a moderate mastery of. IMO compass use and understanding should be like you are saying,,,, part of the OW class and reinforced day to day. others things like way point and contour nav position ploting, is something that they persue either on thier own or in a clss. with the basics you give them in OW. When there are no basics there is no getting better at any skill.