Also TDI and NAUI both have intro to tech (probably other agencies too)
Best way to structure technical training
- Thread starter CAPTAIN SINBAD
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OP
CAPTAIN SINBAD
Contributor
I have taken UTD Esssentials and I have seen multiple PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy courses being conducted by different shops by different instructors. They are not even remotely the same thing.
My UTD Essentials was many days in the water and was the single most challenging course I have taken. Instructor was demanding that I swim backwards, manage task loading while keeping precise depth, do valve shutdowns etc. You do not pass that until your skills are demonstration quality. Even after putting many days in the water, almost everyone failed but we walked away being much better divers and with a solid knowledge of what to work on to get a pass.
In contrast to UTD Essentials, the PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy that I always see being conducted in quarries and pools is a single day of swimming around. Most of the time, it is being taught by instructors whose personal skills are below what a UTD Essentials graduate or a GUE Fundies tech pass student will have. In all my years of diving I have never seen anyone actually fail a PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy class.
In the end, the UTD Essentials is 700 USD and worth a lot more and these mainstream recreational buoyancy classes are 100 USD and worth a lot less and that is what prompted me to state that the industry is in need of a skill building class that is conducted at a more serious level than what we are presently selling to the students.
@CAPTAIN SINBAD did you just now figure out that instructors matter more than agency and the course description?
PS the vast majority of divers aren't interested in technical diving, and sure as hell aren't spending $700 to refine their skills. They got certified, they go rototill the reefs in FL, HI, and the red sea and they're happy doing it.
PS the vast majority of divers aren't interested in technical diving, and sure as hell aren't spending $700 to refine their skills. They got certified, they go rototill the reefs in FL, HI, and the red sea and they're happy doing it.
OP
CAPTAIN SINBAD
Contributor
Outside of GUE and UTD? Yes instructors matter a lot. Within these two agencies there is less instructor variation.
Yes I understand that.
My original post was in the context of technical dive training and since ScubawithTurk suggested that PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy fulfills the same need as GUE Fundies and UTD Essentials, I was tempted to point out that they are not intended to build the same skills or even the same proficiency.
Ayisha
Contributor
Absolutely agree that PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy is not at all the same thing.
And even within those agencies the instructor matters - a lot.
Technical diving is a calculation between money, time you want to spend and what you want to reach.
I personally never did any course that did not bring me deeper or farther in a cave. Also available money plays a role. I knew what I wanted: full trimix and full cave. So searched for my needs. I ended with 3 courses that brought me to 100m: adv. rec. trimix, normoxic trimix and full trimix. And same with cave.
You see agencies make more courses and more steps, sometimes because of making more money, sometimes because people ask it (adv. nitrox vs adv. rec. trimix, you only need one to start normoxic trimix, same with normoxic trimix or normoxic plus to start full trimix).
The essentials, basics of tech, fundamentals was introduced because a lot of divers don't have the skills to start technical diving. I like the idea, but not as requirement, it must allways be optional. And some things can also be learned by being autodidactical or having a good buddy like drysuit and sidemount. For technical diving, by most agencies, a drysuit or sidemount cert is not an official requirement, sometimes the instructor makes his own rules. You can accept, or look for another instructor. And also here it can be just for making money, or his own opinion that it is better for the diver. I believe in such cases in a dive before accepting a student, then it is not for just making money, but to learn knowing each other. In my country no diver will start a technical course without having a drysuit and knows how to dive it. So a drysuit cert is not needed (and not required in standards) and a lot of divers don't have a drysuit cert here.
And if a esssentials or fundamentals is required, and you don't want it: look for another agency. It is not that difficult. At the end there is no proof that agency x is better or worser than agency y.
Agencies sometimes have small differences for more or less the same course. adv. nitrox to 40m, to 42m, or to 45m. Or with only ean50, or with the decagas you want (including 100%). But one of these is a requirement for normoxic trimix, so you can easy cross from 1 agency to another.
The best thing is to know what you want, then search for instructors and ask for different opinions. Maybe ask for a dive with the instructor of your choice. Be critical about the skills and experience of your instructor. And remember: there is no cheap technical diving.
I personally never did any course that did not bring me deeper or farther in a cave. Also available money plays a role. I knew what I wanted: full trimix and full cave. So searched for my needs. I ended with 3 courses that brought me to 100m: adv. rec. trimix, normoxic trimix and full trimix. And same with cave.
You see agencies make more courses and more steps, sometimes because of making more money, sometimes because people ask it (adv. nitrox vs adv. rec. trimix, you only need one to start normoxic trimix, same with normoxic trimix or normoxic plus to start full trimix).
The essentials, basics of tech, fundamentals was introduced because a lot of divers don't have the skills to start technical diving. I like the idea, but not as requirement, it must allways be optional. And some things can also be learned by being autodidactical or having a good buddy like drysuit and sidemount. For technical diving, by most agencies, a drysuit or sidemount cert is not an official requirement, sometimes the instructor makes his own rules. You can accept, or look for another instructor. And also here it can be just for making money, or his own opinion that it is better for the diver. I believe in such cases in a dive before accepting a student, then it is not for just making money, but to learn knowing each other. In my country no diver will start a technical course without having a drysuit and knows how to dive it. So a drysuit cert is not needed (and not required in standards) and a lot of divers don't have a drysuit cert here.
And if a esssentials or fundamentals is required, and you don't want it: look for another agency. It is not that difficult. At the end there is no proof that agency x is better or worser than agency y.
Agencies sometimes have small differences for more or less the same course. adv. nitrox to 40m, to 42m, or to 45m. Or with only ean50, or with the decagas you want (including 100%). But one of these is a requirement for normoxic trimix, so you can easy cross from 1 agency to another.
The best thing is to know what you want, then search for instructors and ask for different opinions. Maybe ask for a dive with the instructor of your choice. Be critical about the skills and experience of your instructor. And remember: there is no cheap technical diving.
I personally like the flexibility that the shorter "bite size courses" offer, e.g. the PADI TEC Deep syllabus. Every student is different. I have had students that were completely squared away, even at the minimum number of dives required as pre-requisites- and could handle going the full TEC Deep syllabus over a week, plus adding Helium under TMX45/50 (two very under-appreciated classes IMO). My preference would be to put a good student through TEC DEEP, add TMX50 to allow them to dive with light Mix and get some experience, then push into the full Trimix class after they had some time on mix.
Then there are the students that can barely pass Tec 40, without a ton of remediation (my shop has even had instructors and DMs that have a hard time with Tec 40). Those are the ones I try and stop from moving further until they get some time just diving the basic Tec rig and a single AL40. Sometimes they don't ever come back for 45, mostly due to the fact they realize their own limitations. Sometimes Tec 40 is all they will be able to handle, and that is fine with me. It gets them exposure to the basic Tec setup, allows for better dive planning than the recreational courses handle, and generally makes them safer divers, with more experience in handling emergencies or contingencies the average recreational diver cannot.
Then there are the students that can barely pass Tec 40, without a ton of remediation (my shop has even had instructors and DMs that have a hard time with Tec 40). Those are the ones I try and stop from moving further until they get some time just diving the basic Tec rig and a single AL40. Sometimes they don't ever come back for 45, mostly due to the fact they realize their own limitations. Sometimes Tec 40 is all they will be able to handle, and that is fine with me. It gets them exposure to the basic Tec setup, allows for better dive planning than the recreational courses handle, and generally makes them safer divers, with more experience in handling emergencies or contingencies the average recreational diver cannot.
I'm one of those that believes an intro to tech/fundamentals/essentials type program is a good starting point before going into tech training of any sort. I've had several people argue with me on this and tell me they should be able to just jump into an AN/DP type program. I think there were pages and pages and pages of back and forth arguing on this very topic here on this forum.
And according to standards they can do. Do you refuse them? Do you dive with them before accepting? I never did such a course and if an instructor wanted me to do it without knowing my diving, then it would be a no go. I have done dives with some instructors to show my diving, to learn to know each other. But I have never done a not requiered course.
In my country, most people don't do an intro to tech course. Sometimes it is also part of culture. Here people don't like it. And a lot of divers have a cmas 3* cert and that is already a PO2 of 1.4, so 57m or the older 60m cert. Then you cannot ask from them to do a course they already have. I am not against intro to tech or fundies, but I am against it as requirement, that is only to make money then. It has nothing to do with the individual diver that has the skills already to start technical diving.
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