A comparison between the risks of freediving and scubadiving

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Completely and totally false...Not very surprising though. Comments like that are often said by people who have no understanding on how to actually freedive.

I'm confused at this statement here. If I understood your assetion correctly, then you implied that a person can willfully recover from a shallow water black out. If this is your assertion, then it goes against everything I have seen on you You-Tube videos regarding the subject and against what I have been taught in the freediving course that I took several years ago. During a shallow water blackout, the person is unsconcious and will not regain consciouness until sufficient oxygen is regained. If we're unconscious, we do not have any motor control at all, exactly what BurnhamMuntasser asserted.

If I have mis-understood what you intended, please elaborate and explain where i went wrong.
 
I'm confused at this statement here. If I understood your assetion correctly, then you implied that a person can willfully recover from a shallow water black out
.

The assertion is that recovery without injury from blackouts is a non-issue when you are following proper safety procedures because they are specifically designed to deal with that without issue. To say there is no recourse is false because the safety procedures, themselves, are your recourse. A person willfully recovers from blackouts by willfully following correct safety procedures.
 
I'm confused at this statement here. If I understood your assetion correctly, then you implied that a person can willfully recover from a shallow water black out. If this is your assertion, then it goes against everything I have seen on you You-Tube videos regarding the subject and against what I have been taught in the freediving course that I took several years ago. During a shallow water blackout, the person is unsconcious and will not regain consciouness until sufficient oxygen is regained. If we're unconscious, we do not have any motor control at all, exactly what BurnhamMuntasser asserted.

If I have mis-understood what you intended, please elaborate and explain where i went wrong.
Your comment about a black out victim being unconscious and will not regain conciousness until sufficient oxygen is regained might be confusing to some people.

The standard protocol for recovery of a SWB victim involves (among other things) removal of the mask, exposure of the face to air and verbal encouragement to breathe. So a victim can often recover without artificial respiration or other means to increase oxygen levels.
 
The Freedive Recovery Vest is a highly sophisticated piece of electronic and mechanical technology that the diver programs with his maximum depth, maximum dive time and other input. If the diver approaches any of his own pre-set limits, he is given an audible warning prior to automatic detonation.
It would be interesting to combine the pre-set limits with some kind of biometric sensors, for example for the heartbeat, or similar
It's very likely that SWB will give symptoms that could be automatically detected by a proper sensor and algorithm
 
Your comment about a black out victim being unconscious and will not regain conciousness until sufficient oxygen is regained might be confusing to some people.

The standard protocol for recovery of a SWB victim involves (among other things) removal of the mask, exposure of the face to air and verbal encouragement to breathe. So a victim can often recover without artificial respiration or other means to increase oxygen levels.

I've survived two solo SWB in my younger years. Head above water floating face up was sufficient in my case.

So far back outs during apnea training on land I've come to again without needing pure o2 as well.

Not saying every case just requires air for recovery, but that's been my experience.

Prevention is also worth a pound of cure.

Freediving ascent is my backup plan for SCUBA failure. I don't have that luxury if I'm already freediving as I don't carry a secondary airsource in this regard I feel safer on SCUBA.

Cameron
 
In order to get decompression sickness from freediving, you need to be an extremely accomplished freediver or freedive after scuba diving, otherwise it is more of a theoretical issue.
 
Free dive spearfishing is certainly more dangerous than recreational scuba.
Most people I’ve hunted fish with, including myself, tend to wander off on their own.
Then, you hit a nice snapper that holes up at 60-70 feet. Adrenaline is pumping, you want to get the fish before surfacing and over stay on the bottom, burning more oxygen in the attempt to wrestle the fish out of the hole.
This is the danger.
Even if I surface with the fish securely held on my reel line, it takes a bit longer to relax and breath up for the follow up, get the fish dive. Excitement. This is when I do wait for one of my diving sons. We all do this when one of us has one holed up.
Learn your limits. I blacked out in my PFI course. So did my son. 5 minute breath hold. I never push even close to that when hunting/diving. It was an eye opening experience.
I almost ordered a free dive vest. The only thing that worries me is what if your halfway in a hole and it inflates?
 
I don’t have data or a firm opinion on the magnitude or the relative risks of scuba versus freediving.

How can you then make any of the points you are making later in your post?


Diving with an attentive and well-trained buddy, limiting your depth and times, picking your days when conditions are good and also avoiding certain “risky” behaviors should effectively enhance safety for both freediving and scuba diving.
And so is staying at home and not going into water deeper than your ankles. This doesn't address the real and ugly issue with Free diving.


I don’t have data or a firm opinion on the magnitude or the relative risks of scuba versus freediving. However, I think that it is pretty clear that scuba diving and freediving are two activities that can most definitely be enjoyed in a safe manner.
If you don't have the "date," how can you be so "clear" about the conclusions you make? BTW, we are talking about "free diving" and not tourist type of "snorkeling."


SWB is a loss of consciousness and can be preceded by other problems, such as LMC (loss of motor control). It is associated with a deficient partial pressure of oxygen in the brain. Generally, these problems are not going to suddenly appear out of nowhere and will not occur when a freediver attempts to constrain his diving within his personal capabilities – however in rare instances it CAN happen with little or no warning. Perhaps the rare occurrence of SWB is somewhat analogous to the “undeserved” decompression sickness that some scuba divers fall victim to.

You are making SO many statements and assumptions here without ANY validity or back up from real data, just guessing and assuming based on your own very narrow experience and prejudice.


SWB is a loss of consciousness and can be preceded by other problems, such as LMC (loss of motor control). It is associated with a deficient partial pressure of oxygen in the brain. Generally, these problems are not going to suddenly appear out of nowhere and will not occur when a freediver attempts to constrain his diving within his personal capabilities – however in rare instances it CAN happen with little or no warning.

This statement is so untrue. When the victim is underwater and he suffers SWBO, there is no warning of any kind that would give him the chance to do anything to prevent it. It all happens at once and lights are off. The horrible thing about it is that this is happening while on the way to the surface and only few feet/centimeters below the surface and whatever the victim is able to do, going up to the surface, he is going to go unconscious and drown. He may get lucky, MAY, and float up on the surface face up and get few breaths of air and he wakes up but that is a distant probability.



Perhaps the rare occurrence of SWB is somewhat analogous to the “undeserved” decompression sickness that some scuba divers fall victim to.

No, it is NOT. Please don't compare the two, this is totally misleading.

For "undeserved" DCS hit, people usually looking at predisposing factor, namely PFO.


The SWB is more severe (than a LMC) and generally does not occur until the freediver has reached or approached the surface. It is unusual for it to occur deeper than a few feet.
The deadly last "couple" of feet is what makes it scary, the closer you are to safety, the closer you are to blacking out and dying.

These generalities are applicable to recreational freediving and may be less applicable to competitive or extreme freediving (where more involved safety protocols are warranted).

Thank you for pointing this part out, we are discussing "recreational" freediving typically associated with spearfishing. We are not talking about competitive/show freediving in all of its ranges where there are strict monitoring and safety protocols.



Should a SWB occur, an attentive buddy can recover the victim and in 99.9 % (my estimate) of the cases, the victim will regain consciousness within a few to several seconds and will suffer no significant or permanent harm (although his diving should be curtailed for the day). This initial loss of consciousness is thought to be a natural, brain protection mechanism, rather than a symptom of actual damage or an injury. This means that chances of complete recovery are extremely good in favorable circumstances. In this respect, the analogy with a Decompression Injury breaks down, since no actual injury occurs and medical treatment is not normally necessary.


First, your estimates are not valid, you don't have ANY even remotely valid basis to support your numbers at all. Second, no one is disputing what SWBO here, passing out, the issue is that it happens underwater, in shallow water, and that the victim will most likely drown and die -IF- not rescued immediately. We can argue all day about which is worse, DCS hit or SWBO, but DCS in most cases can be treated and the diver will still be alive when SWBO means drowning and dying (unless the dive is extremely lucky and was rescued before it was too late).


If the buddy is well trained, attentive and conditions allow him to see the ascending diver and he maintains very close physical proximity to the location where the victim is ascending, then recovery is often not difficult. It is extremely beneficial to have a buddy watching your dive when freediving.

That's a lot of "if's" in your statement that effect the life of the victim. If any of your "if's" is missing, the victim will most likely die. You are ignoring the very critical factor here is that the freediver is TOTALLY depending on good fortune and the skills and attentiveness of his buddy and environmental conditions to keep him alive. This is why SWBO and freediving are dangerous, the diver needs totally outside variables to save him from certain death beyond his own control.




It would be unfortunate for people who are potentially interested in taking a formal freediving class to be discouraged by excessive emphasis of the dangers of the sport. A considerable portion of these classes is focused on emergency response and buddy techniques; and more emphasis is given to these considerations rather than attainment of a particular depth or time.

I don't think that frank and truthful discussion to bring out the serious potential risks of the activity in the open, freediving in this case, should be curtailed or minimized just because of the concern that the mere knowledge of the risks -may- dissuade potential participants from getting involved in the sport and/or taking proper training. If people don't know and understand the potential significant risks to their lives and health, they will have no appreciation or motivation to get more training and to be attentive and “good” buddies to help their buddy in case of SWBO. The training and all of the required good diver skills will have no value for the aspiring free diver if this free diver doesn’t understand the full potential of injury and certain death he may face if they choose to participate in the activity. The training and emphasis will be in this case focused on deeper depths and long breath hold times and nothing else.



I am faced with this insanity almost every day here in Libya where uneducated public has no respect for the required training and rarely take it primarily because they don’t understand the risk and potential for severe injury in the activity. It is so bad here that we have several charlatans who are running “training” courses while charging their customers money for the training when these “self-proclaimed” instructors aren’t certified divers or instructors and do not follow any standards or curriculum. Their entire source of knowledge is “pass me down” knowledge and YouTube. Their training is focused on going to deeper depths as much as the “trainees” can go, even beyond 30 meters in their basic course. They don’t teach anything related to buddy diving or proper planning or even equalization.
EDict_Pron_Button
 
"Medical perspective" is what is of no relevance. An actual injury happening is what is of relevance and with a proper buddy following proper saftey procedure, injury does not happen...



Completely and totally false...Not very surprising though. Comments like that are often said by people who have no understanding on how to actually freedive.

And you have a monopoly on the truth and knowledge there. Incredible.
 

Back
Top Bottom