A comparison between the risks of freediving and scubadiving

[BoltSnap]

If you consider a SWB to be an accident, then the comment that most freedive accidents are fatal/lethal is invalid.

SWB is unfortunately not that uncommon, but there many, many stories of rescues and recoveries. These incidents would not be reported to DAN or anyone and there is some stigma associated with it, so people tend not to discuss it openly.

However, almost everyone in the freedive community knows one or more people who have had an incident. As I tried to explain earlier, a SWB should not be fatal and generally results in nothing more than driving the boat for the remainder of the day if it is handled properly.

I don’t want to minimize the potential tragedy that can result from a SWB, but a fatality is thankfully, relatively unusual.

Unfortunately, you are trying to sugarcoat the situation and making appear less deadly by using a lot of "if's" in your assumptions.

 

[BoltSnap]

The assertion is that recovery without injury from blackouts is a non-issue when you are following proper safety procedures because they are specifically designed to deal with that without issue. To say there is no recourse is false because the safety procedures, themselves, are your recourse. A person willfully recovers from blackouts by willfully following correct safety procedures.

These procedures are put into place because the activity is so extremely dangerous. If you pass out underwater, SWBO, you are going to drown and die unless you are fortunate enough to have somebody who pulls you out giving you the chance to recover before it is too late. This is the main issue with free diving and SWBO, it is the fact that the deadly condition will take place and it is deadly. You may have the fortunate where you are saved by a buddy who is following the entire set of rule and the water/air/environmental conditions and your fortune all lineup for you to be saved. Saved by other factors none of them are you.

 

[BoltSnap]

The standard protocol for recovery of a SWB victim involves (among other things) removal of the mask, exposure of the face to air and verbal encouragement to breathe. So a victim can often recover without artificial respiration or other means to increase oxygen levels.

They can also have drowned and need full rescue and resuscitation.

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

Wow I have been accused of being biased and also of having extremely narrow experience. Well I am biased, I enjoy the sport, and do it as often as I can.

So yes I personally like Freediving, spearfishing and even do a little scuba occasionally. And since I also sell freedive and spearing gear, that would color my opinion on the sport as well.

Although I have never claimed to be an expert in the sport and my deepest dive of around 150 ft is less than half what true competitors can do any day of the week, I am unsure what information you have relied upon to categorize my experience to be “extremely narrow”.

I have been diving since I was a kid and that is
more years than I might like to admit. I have trained with some of the best freedivers in the world, literally and have been fortunate enough to dive in many parts of the world.

The topic of freedive safety is extremely important and I always try to convey to new divers the importance of training. As indicated above, I am very supportive of the freedive recovery vest and use it often. I also list several freedive instructors on my website and also offer the freedive recovery vest. In addition, our policy is that any diver who ditches a MAKO weightbelt will be given a free replacement (the details are on my site).

The assertion that a freediver will have zero warning of a problem is NOT necessarily true. He should be monitoring depth and time and how he feels and his exertion level and if he suspects a problem, dropping a belt can make a difference. There are also ample examples of
divers getting in trouble without feeling really bad.

So the reality is that a diver might experience a SWB without warning or symptoms, but that is unusual.

I think my comments in this thread have been valid and I agree with the criticism that I have not gone to the trouble of researching statistical information, but I have made tens of thousands of freedives and have done so while buddied up with many different people from all over the world.

I would prefer be to keep the discussion professional and pleasant and will avoid making disparaging comments about the participants.

Freediving is as dangerous as you make it. Experience shows it can be enjoyed safely.

I have no doubt that some people are doing it wrong and completely understand how discouraging and infuriating that might be to witness. We can encourage them to seek good training and to follow the protocols that are taught.

 

[BoltSnap]

Although I have never claimed to be an expert in the sport and my deepest dive of around 150 ft is less than half what true competitors can do any day of the week, I am unsure what information you have relied upon to categorize my experience to be “extremely narrow”.

You are making your assumptions based on your own experience and hence your assumption are drawing from a very narrow margin of experience, yours only, and not from real data and professional study from different sources and experiences.

 

[seeker242]

These procedures are put into place because the activity is so extremely dangerous. If you pass out underwater, SWBO, you are going to drown and die unless you are fortunate enough to have somebody who pulls you out giving you the chance to recover before it is too late.

You don't need to be "fortunate enough" to employ safe practices. Safe practices are not a matter of luck or chance...

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

You are making your assumptions based on your own experience and hence your assumption are drawing from a very narrow margin of experience, yours only, and not from real data and professional study from different sources and experiences.

I think that in general, the information I have provided is consistent with what is being taught by modern, internationally recognized training agencies.

If you feel that I have significantly diverged from that, can you provide some specific reference? Perhaps my recollection of course material and these topics is not as strong as it should be.

You seem to be perseverating on the idea that a SWB never has any warnings, and strikes randomly and is apparently unrelated to the aggressiveness of the dive. I use the word agressive to denote a whole host of complex factors and is not limited to depth, time, surface interval, activity level and physical conditioning and psychological status of the diver.

The facts are that the aggressiveness of the dive is very relevant to the probability of a SWB for a particular dive. Often there are warnings that a diver is pushing too hard, a quality class will teach some of these things and a class also gives the student some ability to test some personal abilities under expert monitoring and control. I’m not going to go into more specificity on these details here.

Another consideration which has not yet been mentioned, is that freedivers now have freedive watches that keep track of depth, time, surface interval and can be programmed to activate user selected warnings. This is an important tool that can enhance safety and they are quite common now.

Even with all these factors and an attempt to dive within one’s own personal limits, accidents can happen. You are completely correct that this MAY occur and is not
Entirely predictable. And you are also correct that the consequences CAN be fatal, but that is why we emphasize training, avoidance of pushing limits and having a buddy. These things can very significantly mitigate the risks.

The fact that some people will not adhere to well recognized protocols and end up dying, is not evidence that the activity can not be pursued in a responsible manner with a good deal of safety.

 

[BoltSnap]

I think that in general, the information I have provided is consistent with what is being taught by modern, internationally recognized training agencies.

If you feel that I have significantly diverged from that, can you provide some specific reference? Perhaps my recollection of course material and these topics is not as strong as it should be.

You seem to be perseverating on the idea that a SWB never has any warnings, and strikes randomly and is apparently unrelated to the aggressiveness of the dive. I use the word agressive to denote a whole host of complex factors and is not limited to depth, time, surface interval, activity level and physical conditioning and psychological status of the diver.

The facts are that the aggressiveness of the dive is very relevant to the probability of a SWB for a particular dive. Often there are warnings that a diver is pushing too hard, a quality class will teach some of these things and a class also gives the student some ability to test some personal abilities under expert monitoring and control. I’m not going to go into more specificity on these details here.

Another consideration which has not yet been mentioned, is that freedivers now have freedive watches that keep track of depth, time, surface interval and can be programmed to activate user selected warnings. This is an important tool that can enhance safety and they are quite common now.

Even with all these factors and an attempt to dive within one’s own personal limits, accidents can happen. You are completely correct that this MAY occur and is not
Entirely predictable. And you are also correct that the consequences CAN be fatal, but that is why we emphasize training, avoidance of pushing limits and having a buddy. These things can very significantly mitigate the risks.

The fact that some people will not adhere to well recognized protocols and end up dying, is not evidence that the activity can not be pursued in a responsible manner with a good deal of safety.

I am not arguing that with proper and qualified training the probability of SWBO can't be reduced, in fact, I am for proper training very strongly. I am arguing that SWBO by and in itself is very dangerous and difficult to deal with a diver on his own. I am against minimizing the danger just because of the concern that people my get turned off to free diving.

Free diving has a lot of risk but with proper training, it has less risk (but still has risk).

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

I am not arguing that with proper and qualified training the probability of SWBO can't be reduced, in fact, I am for proper training very strongly. I am arguing that SWBO by and in itself is very dangerous and difficult to deal with a diver on his own. I am against minimizing the danger just because of the concern that people my get turned off to free diving.

Free diving has a lot of risk but with proper training, it has less risk (but still has risk).

Thanks, I think we are in pretty close aggrement on that. A solo diver who has a SWB is in a very serious situation and it
may well be the last mistake they ever make.

It is important that people are not mislead and into thinking that because freedive gear is much less complex than scuba, that they should pursue the activity without training and supervision.

 

[Hank49]

Re free dive watches, I used one for about 10 years but in the last year, I stopped. I trust my judgement now, based on experience.
Using the watch, I would sometimes push myself harder, because I HAD done the same, longer dives. But on this given day, it didn’t feel the same.
Not knowing any numbers, time wise, I just go on how I feel.
I actually feel more relaxed now.