Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

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Minimalism is a perfectly valid philosophy. I guess the question is, why so many folks cross the line from "I don't need it, I don't care for it", all the way to "I dislike it, and I will think low of people, who use it". A question to minimalists: clearly, disliking what you simply don't need is not necessary.... why dislike it, then? Disliking is redundant, just as A.I. is redundant.
 
never said what you do is inferior, all I said is that the only justifiable argument for that gear is "because I want it". There is nothing wrong with not using the best of the best, life is all about compromises, the difference is the only argument for any of the above that makes any sense is "because I want to". I don't understand why people have an issue with decisions on gear that are actually superior, whether it is in function, or quality, or usually both. It's a fact, it is what it is. AI isn't one of them; split fins, stab jackets, and safe seconds are. I won't talk down on anyone that already owns them or chose to purchase them, but I will do my best to steer people away from that when there are better and usually cheaper options available.

Lets leave that out of the discussion, but saying that we are totally inflexible is not true. The fact is that through either trial and error on our own, or through the trial and error of those before us, they settled on gear configurations that are superior and they did it for a reason. I have tried repeatedly to get people who disagree with that to come out and give an actual benefit to a stab jacket, safe second, split fins. No one has done it. I have tried to emphasize that there is no real "unsafe" gear on the market, but why settle for mediocrity? Why do we have to listen to the propaganda from the dive shops and equipment manufacturers pushing gear they make higher margins on when we can save money, get better gear, and buy locally? I'm done discussion this in this thread, AI is perfectly acceptable, if you want to spend the money on it go for it, I don't care. I think Pete's setup is perfectly fine and if they weren't so bloody expensive and big I would likely do the same, but that isn't the case. This is an entirely different argument that is based purely on cost/convenience, there is no functional advantage or disadvantage to AI or SPG's, just cost/convenience in my mind. The other categories actually have a functionality disadvantage.
 
"Because I want it" is a justifiable argument, just not to you. You needn't understand it, it isn't about you. It isn't always about cost, it isn't your money. It isn't about your view of the functionality it's about what a person is looking for which may differ from what you want.

5 or 6 years ago a discussion about any computer would bring about a similar response by some on Scubaboard, especially tech divers. Computers were devil's spawn, a real diver would never never depend on a computer in any way, not even on a rec dive. Now some computers are highly regarded and in fact recommended by those who are tech divers. I think the disdain for AI will eventually fade away.

(See highlighted section below)Too late, you've done before on numerous occasions and quite frequently.
never said what you do is inferior, all I said is that the only justifiable argument for that gear is "because I want it". There is nothing wrong with not using the best of the best, life is all about compromises, the difference is the only argument for any of the above that makes any sense is "because I want to". I don't understand why people have an issue with decisions on gear that are actually superior, whether it is in function, or quality, or usually both. It's a fact, it is what it is. AI isn't one of them; split fins, stab jackets, and safe seconds are. I won't talk down on anyone that already owns them or chose to purchase them, but I will do my best to steer people away from that when there are better and usually cheaper options available.

Lets leave that out of the discussion, but saying that we are totally inflexible is not true. The fact is that through either trial and error on our own, or through the trial and error of those before us, they settled on gear configurations that are superior and they did it for a reason. I have tried repeatedly to get people who disagree with that to come out and give an actual benefit to a stab jacket, safe second, split fins. No one has done it. I have tried to emphasize that there is no real "unsafe" gear on the market, but why settle for mediocrity? Why do we have to listen to the propaganda from the dive shops and equipment manufacturers pushing gear they make higher margins on when we can save money, get better gear, and buy locally? I'm done discussion this in this thread, AI is perfectly acceptable, if you want to spend the money on it go for it, I don't care. I think Pete's setup is perfectly fine and if they weren't so bloody expensive and big I would likely do the same, but that isn't the case. This is an entirely different argument that is based purely on cost/convenience, there is no functional advantage or disadvantage to AI or SPG's, just cost/convenience in my mind. The other categories actually have a functionality disadvantage.
 
it is, but there is a reason we dive what we dive. There is a huge difference in advocating AI as a better alternative and worth spending the money, which is wrong. There is no reason to choose AI over an SPG other than "because I can", or "because I want to". That's fine, if you can justify it that way, good for you, but there is no way to logically argue for AI due to the cost and overall inferior computer design when compared to a Petrel. That's just a hard fact. IF you deem AI worth the cost, then there are no valid arguments against them due to reliability etc, for recreational divers I frankly don't see the point in an extra SPG on the rig all the time, just having one in the save a dive kit is good enough in my opinion. Reliability on the new transmitter designs seems to be much better on the syncing front, but you will never have an argument other than "because I want to" that will actually hold any validity. It's a perfectly acceptable reason, but that's the only one. The same logic applies to non-necklaced octo's, Safe Seconds, jacket BC's, and split fins. None of them have any actual justification over a traditional octopus, bp/w, and paddle fins other than "because I want to". None of them are going to kill you, but none have any actual benefits that would allow a logical argument for them.

"Fact"....."wrong" A little strong for personal choice isn't it? Having all of my data in one place to look is beneficial. That is also a "fact!" Having 1950's era SPG technology is just "wrong!" Enough sarcasm. I am just pointing out that "different" and "wrong" are not the same thing.

As far as reliability issue. Since 2001 (350 dives or so...Hey, easy I live in Colorado so I have to fly to dive) when I switched to hoseless AI I have had two transmitter failures. Switched to old technology (SPG) both times and no harm done. In the same period I lost my 1st stage once and an octopus 2nd once, plus 2 masks. So yeah, stuff breaks but all stuff breaks. The electronic stuff breaks no more or less often than the mechanical stuff breaks.
 
I used the Suunto Vytec transmitter on my right post on my last cave diving trip, and it didn't interfere with closing my valve at all.

It's a convenience. It's like cruise control. You don't need it, but it's nice on long highway trips. If the syncing were simpler and less finicky, I'd be fonder of it. If transmitters were less expensive, it'd be easier to recommend them across the board. In a sport where people bemoan the cost of equipment, it's hard to justify the expenditure for this particular item, and Adobo is right that spending that money on training is probably higher yield. But when you get to the "entire basement full of dive gear" stage of this sport, you've forgotten what you spent on stuff, anyway :)
 
never said what you do is inferior, all I said is that the only justifiable argument for that gear is "because I want it".
It's the same argument you use for B&G SPG. Superior is in the eyes of the diver. What's an obvious choice to one diver is not so much to another. Electronic ignition was poorly received by most mechanics. We hated it and didn't trust it. Some popped in a different distributor that used points and condensor. How short sighted we were. Onboard computers and fuel injection met with the same resistance. Luddites have issues. I'm an early adopter now.
 
ok, so why do people misconstrue what I was talking about? If people ask for my opinion on their gear, I will tell them. If I see someone diving with a stab jacket, an Air2, wireless AI, and split fins I'm not going to call them a stroke or say they bought bad gear. When people ask for my opinion I will tell them that I think they made a mistake and tell them why. I have yet to have anyone offer a logical rebuttal, I welcome one who can.

"Because I want to" is a perfectly legitimate argument for me, I do it all the time. That is why I started diving sidemount before it was cool, that's why I still dive Poseidon regulators, believe in double hose regulators, etc. Many decisions are not about what is best or what is not, it is about what is best for you. The difference between those is that they are not compromising function or safety. If safe seconds, stab jackets, split fins, and the golden triangle were actually better, then the technical community wouldn't have gone away from them or refused to use them in the first place. AI is not in that grouping because the only current argument against it is that there aren't any on the market that offer the features of a Petrel+SPG with the added convenience of AI *that is all AI is, is a convenience, you can't argue that and win* with a reasonable price tag.

I have said repeatedly in this thread that IF a computer was available that was equal to the Petrel on function, and IF it was comparable on price, and IF the transmitters weren't so bloody expensive, I would advocate wireless AI because I think it needs to happen. Unfortunately the only wireless AI computer that fits that bill is the Seabear H3 which is 30% more expensive, has a smaller screen with less useful information on it, and still doesn't have a transmitter picture/pricing yet. I am a firm believe in hosed AI for backmount, unfortunately no one has come out with a computer that I would use yet. Seabear has their new HUDC, but without a FFM it would be uncomfortable, and can't use it for sidemount. I have talked with Shearwater about integrating a AI module into the DiveCAN so you can remove the SPG's on CCR, it apparently is done for one of the military models, but no interest from the rest of the market.

I believe in AI, I really do, but there are no products on the market until the Seabear H3 comes out with its transmitters that would get me to recommend that computer over a Petrel right now *If they can get a two transmitter package with computer for around $1200 it would be a no brainer in my book btw and I will likely be in the front of the line to get one*. I hope it changes, I really do, but the current state of the market doesn't have anything that makes sense right now on a cost/performance basis. I can get a Petrel with two SPGs/Hoses for $900, to get me to go away from that I have to have a computer that provides the same functions, and give me AI for a reasonable surcharge. I don't think paying double or more is worth it.
 
I did my first 50 dives without any computer. After that I decided to get a computer. At the time I was able to get a Pro Plus 2 on sale for almost the same price as a non AI computer. It is so easy to look down at the giant numbers to tell how much air I have left in the tank. Right above that in more giant numbers is my dive time remaining. It is very convienient. There are also "graphs" along the sides that show other info. More info than I'll ever need in one convienient spot.

I haven't heard anybody that has an AI computer computer that dislikes them. If you conduct your dive based on ATR instead of a dive plan, it could be less safe. I have also never heard of anybody dieing because they used an AI computer.
 
it is, but there is a reason we dive what we dive. There is a huge difference in advocating AI as a better alternative and worth spending the money, which is wrong. There is no reason to choose AI over an SPG other than "because I can", or "because I want to". That's fine, if you can justify it that way, good for you, but there is no way to logically argue for AI due to the cost and overall inferior computer design when compared to a Petrel. That's just a hard fact. IF you deem AI worth the cost, then there are no valid arguments against them due to reliability etc, for recreational divers I frankly don't see the point in an extra SPG on the rig all the time, just having one in the save a dive kit is good enough in my opinion. Reliability on the new transmitter designs seems to be much better on the syncing front, but you will never have an argument other than "because I want to" that will actually hold any validity. It's a perfectly acceptable reason, but that's the only one. The same logic applies to non-necklaced octo's, Safe Seconds, jacket BC's, and split fins. None of them have any actual justification over a traditional octopus, bp/w, and paddle fins other than "because I want to". None of them are going to kill you, but none have any actual benefits that would allow a logical argument for them.

I disagree. I have been watching this thread and everyone is has valid points and we choose what to dive with what we feel comfortable with. However AI does give you something a SPG does not. You can set it to warn you when you get to a certain PSI in your tank. I currently have mine set to 1,000 PSI as a first alarm and then at 500 PSI for the reserve. Most people will never be concerned with running low on air etc but for some people that alarm could be very important. But the fact is it can give you something non AI cannot which you cannot dispute.

It also can offer you your RBT remaining bottom time based on how much air you are consuming and your current depth. Once again you can set an alarm on this for example 3 minutes RBT.
 
never said what you do is inferior, all I said is that the only justifiable argument for that gear is "because I want it". There is nothing wrong with not using the best of the best, life is all about compromises, the difference is the only argument for any of the above that makes any sense is "because I want to". I don't understand why people have an issue with decisions on gear that are actually superior, whether it is in function, or quality, or usually both. It's a fact, it is what it is. AI isn't one of them; split fins, stab jackets, and safe seconds are. I won't talk down on anyone that already owns them or chose to purchase them, but I will do my best to steer people away from that when there are better and usually cheaper options available.

Lets leave that out of the discussion, but saying that we are totally inflexible is not true. The fact is that through either trial and error on our own, or through the trial and error of those before us, they settled on gear configurations that are superior and they did it for a reason. I have tried repeatedly to get people who disagree with that to come out and give an actual benefit to a stab jacket, safe second, split fins. No one has done it. I have tried to emphasize that there is no real "unsafe" gear on the market, but why settle for mediocrity? Why do we have to listen to the propaganda from the dive shops and equipment manufacturers pushing gear they make higher margins on when we can save money, get better gear, and buy locally? I'm done discussion this in this thread, AI is perfectly acceptable, if you want to spend the money on it go for it, I don't care. I think Pete's setup is perfectly fine and if they weren't so bloody expensive and big I would likely do the same, but that isn't the case. This is an entirely different argument that is based purely on cost/convenience, there is no functional advantage or disadvantage to AI or SPG's, just cost/convenience in my mind. The other categories actually have a functionality disadvantage.

Hi tbone,

Let's be clear, you are a zealot and are intolerant of folks who think differently than you do. You do not have all the right answers, whether they are the consensus of your peer group or not. There is a much, much larger group of divers that make their own decisions that are right for them. You should respect those decisions without belittling the divers who make them. Nobody thinks your own decisions are not acceptable for you. You are obviously a knowledgeable individual, ease on up and folks will be much more willing to accept your advice.

Good diving, Craig
 

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