Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

[scubadada]

Messing with someone's ATR would be the obvious way to sabotage a wireless AI DC. Not that anyone would go to all the trouble of building a "rogue" transmitter and installing it on their victim just before the dive.

This is crazy, you could write a mystery book though, for nondivers. Nobody should rely entirely on their ATR, it's to be interpreted in the context of gas remaining, depth, time to surface...

---------- Post added July 2nd, 2015 at 06:05 AM ----------

When in Tonga I saw a transmitter blow the end completely off. Brand new transmitter too. Back to an SPG for him.

I've seen two SPGs explode, doesn't mean it occurs frequently. Anecdotal observations are just that, unless we have accurate numerator and denominator data, no reasonable conclusions can be drawn. We will never have this information, no matter how much we would like it

---------- Post added July 2nd, 2015 at 06:09 AM ----------

Now if Shearwater had AI......

I'm waiting too, despite the naysayers

 

[steady1570]

My only objection to AI is when it sounds like a new diver has seen ads or marketing or had it pushed by a dive shop. But doesn't know the pros and cons, or realize their opinion of the utility of the feature may change soon as they gain experience (and use less air, and check their pressure less often.) Especially when it's someone who is working on a limited budget but has gotten convinced it's a really important super safer way better thing to have. I think it's a shame if that person blows a lot of money on something they don't really need when they probably could have found something more useful to spend it on. If someone has the money for "nice to haves" and understands the pros and cons - great, whatever.

Totally agree. When I first started deeper / tec diving and so calculating SAC and gas volumes required etc, I remember looking at AI and thinking wow, that would be so useful to make my numbers more accurate. It also appealed to the competitive geek in me – being able to download more data about your dive and “compare” against yourself and others. But costs were prohibitive, so I didn’t go that way… then as I gained experience I realised that the info was only of so much use (to me) anyway, and calculating your SAC to 3 dp is a little nuts, especially with team gas planning etc…

The ubiquity of fitness monitors shows that there is a demand for tools that let you analyse and record everything, and that’s great, but knowing what I do now, I’d spend the cash on other toys before AI - such as a rebreather so you don’t have to worry about that pesky SAC rate at all

-Mark

 

[ronscuba]

Pushing beliefs onto rec divers I think you are missing the point, its about mitigating risk!!! I have never ever had a SPG fail, but I have had AI fail. Knowing your remaining gas volume is critical in order to calculate next actions especially when things go south. But I am sure you have a plan to deal with this.

I prefer equipment that less prone to failure and a SPG is one of those.
AI is a $$olution to a problem that never exsisted.

I do understand the point of mitigating risk. Some dive with an SPG in addition to their hoseless AI transmitter. Options after an AI failure ? Use your SPG backup if you carry one or immediately end your dive and safely surface or immediately end your dive and do your safety stop with your buddy before surfacing.

I absolutely appreciate tech divers sharing their knowledge and experience. However, sometimes insults are added with their opinions and recommendations don't always fit the needs. For example telling a new recreational diver the computer they just bought is a useless paperweight or recommending a new OW diver to buy a Petrel as their 1st computer.

 

[patgrayjr]

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. To summarize, the main "objection" to AI seems to be cost, followed by it delivering information that's not necessarily relevant. There's also some anecdotal evidence of equipment failure, and I'd agree that the sync process (I have an Oceanic) can be finicky.

I asked not to start a flame war, but since AI seems to be dismissed as a matter of course, much like the response you'd give a non-diver as to why you wear a mask rather than goggles while diving. I was wondering if there was some major risk or nuance I wasn't aware of (much like the goggles analogy) and this seems to come down to preference and budget.

For me, I really like have everything in a watch-sized unit on my wrist (Oceanic OCi), and the ability to adjust my air consumption based on ATR data. For example, if my ATR seems low, I'll usually notice I'm breathing too fast, and I'll calm myself down. This, and a fairly intensive fitness regime (I'm training for a triathlon, talk about expensive equipment) has done wonders for my SAC. Could I do all that manually? Probably, but being able to see your ATR extend as you consciously control your breathing, is kind of a "real time SAC."

Thanks for the enlightenment!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Crowley]

Most problems I encountered with Air Integrated computers were a matter of inconvenience, rather than safety. Seen a fair few batteries run out whilst we were at sea and the diver hadn't brought any spares. For most of the dives I was guiding then lack of information about depth was not a huge problem because the diver just had to follow me and stay slightly above me, but lack of air information meant the diver had to stay out of the water. I've had to swap HP transmitters and fully integrated computers such as the Suunto Cobra with the console from a spare regulator on numerous occasions, but we didn't carry a spare reg for every single diver so if it was their own personal kit and the spare regs were already being used then it just meant the diver had to sit out the dive.

I'm purely recreational and I think computers are - in general - great, but also as former IT person, I don't trust them completely! My trusty Vyper has been with me throughout my dive career and I love it but a few years back, it suddenly started reading 5m shallower than I was diving. It wasn't really a problem for me at the time because I was guiding on reefs that I knew very well indeed so I knew exactly where I was and followed my set route (these were places I dived on a daily basis for four years); I removed and replaced the battery and it went back to normal.

What bothers me about AI computers without an analogue backup is that if a diver's non-AI computer fails or starts misreporting depth for some reason then this is often something that can be subjectively solved by observation, and in the worst case scenario means a visit to the chamber. If remaining air supply is misreported then the results are potentially much more drastic.

This is not to say that analogue systems are to be trusted entirely - I've seen pretty much every piece of scuba equipment fail at some point, from broken fin straps to HP hoses exploding underwater (and it takes a fair bit of time to empty a tank, btw, if your HP system fails, regardless of what it is; it's not instantaneous). AI is fine, in my opinion, as long as there is a backup.

Hope that makes sense.

C.

 

[scubadada]

Some people feel strongly, one way or the other, that's OK

 

[tbone1004]

so regarding the naysayers on Shearwater AI, the chief naysayer is the owner of the company who has indicated they aren't exploring it, so don't get your hopes up, it isn't going to happen. If you want AI in a badass computer, buy a SeaBear, they have wired AI on their HUD and the H3 is getting transmitters in a few months but is already built for it so it will just be a firmware update.

Now, to the original question. The biggest issue is the cost, second issue is which computers have AI capability. AI is nice, I would certainly not argue against it if it made sense, but it doesn't. Transmitters are big and bulky on the first stage, and the computers are stupid expensive for not a lot of versatility, that makes them a bad choice for technical diving. Reliability is not something I've heard any reasonable doubts against recently and seems to be something similar to GUE's argument against not trusting decompression computers. Sure they weren't as reliable or good 10-20yrs ago, but times have changed.

Price as I said is biggest factor for me. I can get a Petrel for $750, an SPG with hose for $100 and I have the best computer on the market with something that works and is reliable. Cheapest AI computer I found is the Mares Puck Air at $500, you save $350 and get AI, but you lose bluetooth dive logging *has an extra cost USB interface*, digital compass, decompression, mixed gas diving, use of AA batteries, and you go from a gorgeous screen to the casio watch style. That doesn't make sense. You can get the Oceanic Atom 3.1 which is the only AI computer I'd personally look at for $900, so same price as the Petrel+SPG, but you lose the screen, digital compass, and versatility of using with trimix/CCR *obviously not relevant for rec divers*, but that is the argument on the technical side. With the reliability currently I don't personally see the need for an SPG on backgas tanks, especially for recreational guys. Keep it in the save a dive kit, but if your transmitter fails, just start your ascent, not the end of the world.

Suunto Eon is ridiculous because it's $1900 with a single transmitter, so that's just insane, Seabear H3 will be around $1500 or so with a transmitter when that comes out, and at least that is a much nicer computer and cheaper than the Eon, but is still very expensive just to remove the SPG for recreational diving.

With sidemount you're bound to at least two SPG's, and if you run your SPG's up then there is no difficult in looking at them because they're right in front of you the whole time, and if you're diving properly you should be able to look at your depth and time and approximate to within a few hundred PSI how much gas you have left so you only need to look at your SPG a few times during the dive. For ocean dives I check it when I get to the bottom, about every 10 minutes after that, and right before I ascend. The convenience of AI is theoretical at best and if the pricing was reasonable then you wouldn't see as many arguments against it, but when you have to spend much more to save a bit of convenience the math just doesn't work out.

If the Seabear H3 was around $1000/$1100 with a transmitter, I think you'd see a lot of recommendations for that for the guys wanting a premium computer at the recreational level, but the hard fact is that when you are in for $750 for a Petrel, it just makes it real hard to recommend anything else.

 

[JohnN]

Well, if an SPG can blow, why can't a transmitter? (that is sometimes placed on a hose as well)
Time it takes is about 5 minutes IIRC for a full tank, so it can get you in trouble easily if you're at the end of your bottom time if you're diving without redundancy.

As for pairing with another transmitter, 30 divers on a boat, let's say there's a bunch of lazy people leaving 0000 as code, I'm fairly sure there's now a chance to pair with the wrong one. In fact, Suunto themselves state it in their user manual.

Congratulations on correcting your misunderstanding of the implications of a leak on the HP port.

As for Suunto transmitters, mine changes code randomly every time it is pressurized (also documented in the manual). I would suggest of all the potential problems of diving on a cattle boat (your 30 divers), pairing with the wrong transmitter is the least of your problems.

 

[scubadada]

so regarding the naysayers on Shearwater AI, the chief naysayer is the owner of the company who has indicated they aren't exploring it, so don't get your hopes up, it isn't going to happen. If you want AI in a badass computer, buy a SeaBear, they have wired AI on their HUD and the H3 is getting transmitters in a few months but is already built for it so it will just be a firmware update.

Now, to the original question. The biggest issue is the cost, second issue is which computers have AI capability. AI is nice, I would certainly not argue against it if it made sense, but it doesn't. Transmitters are big and bulky on the first stage, and the computers are stupid expensive for not a lot of versatility, that makes them a bad choice for technical diving. Reliability is not something I've heard any reasonable doubts against recently and seems to be something similar to GUE's argument against not trusting decompression computers. Sure they weren't as reliable or good 10-20yrs ago, but times have changed.

Price as I said is biggest factor for me. I can get a Petrel for $750, an SPG with hose for $100 and I have the best computer on the market with something that works and is reliable. Cheapest AI computer I found is the Mares Puck Air at $500, you save $350 and get AI, but you lose bluetooth dive logging *has an extra cost USB interface*, digital compass, decompression, mixed gas diving, use of AA batteries, and you go from a gorgeous screen to the casio watch style. That doesn't make sense. You can get the Oceanic Atom 3.1 which is the only AI computer I'd personally look at for $900, so same price as the Petrel+SPG, but you lose the screen, digital compass, and versatility of using with trimix/CCR *obviously not relevant for rec divers*, but that is the argument on the technical side. With the reliability currently I don't personally see the need for an SPG on backgas tanks, especially for recreational guys. Keep it in the save a dive kit, but if your transmitter fails, just start your ascent, not the end of the world.

Suunto Eon is ridiculous because it's $1900 with a single transmitter, so that's just insane, Seabear H3 will be around $1500 or so with a transmitter when that comes out, and at least that is a much nicer computer and cheaper than the Eon, but is still very expensive just to remove the SPG for recreational diving.

With sidemount you're bound to at least two SPG's, and if you run your SPG's up then there is no difficult in looking at them because they're right in front of you the whole time, and if you're diving properly you should be able to look at your depth and time and approximate to within a few hundred PSI how much gas you have left so you only need to look at your SPG a few times during the dive. For ocean dives I check it when I get to the bottom, about every 10 minutes after that, and right before I ascend. The convenience of AI is theoretical at best and if the pricing was reasonable then you wouldn't see as many arguments against it, but when you have to spend much more to save a bit of convenience the math just doesn't work out.

If the Seabear H3 was around $1000/$1100 with a transmitter, I think you'd see a lot of recommendations for that for the guys wanting a premium computer at the recreational level, but the hard fact is that when you are in for $750 for a Petrel, it just makes it real hard to recommend anything else.

Nice analysis, thanks

I'm still holding out that Shearwater will recognize the significant market for an AI Petrel 3. The Seabear H3 is a very good looking computer, maybe the AI will be less than you think, I would hope the $1200s. In the meantime, my VT3 is doing fine and I can wait and see.

The Oceanic VT 4.1 is available with transmitter and download cord for $700. It has an easy to read screen, compass, and runs DSAT and Buhlmann ZHL-16C. Of course, rumor has it that it will be discontinued (in favor of the VTX?). I'm sure Oceanic will support it.

I'm sure most of us are glad we have so many choices

 

[Nemrod]

Well, if an SPG can blow, why can't a transmitter? (that is sometimes placed on a hose as well)
Time it takes is about 5 minutes IIRC for a full tank, so it can get you in trouble easily if you're at the end of your bottom time if you're diving without redundancy.

As for pairing with another transmitter, 30 divers on a boat, let's say there's a bunch of lazy people leaving 0000 as code, I'm fairly sure there's now a chance to pair with the wrong one. In fact, Suunto themselves state it in their user manual.

Generally, at least for an open water diver, failure of any type of high pressure device is not a big deal, from an air loss stand point because all modern regulators have a restrictor orifice on the HP ports. Yes it will leak and no it will not cause a problem that would result in rapid air loss. A LP hose/device is a different animal and can result in total loss of air within three minutes.

I check my spg maybe three or four times in a dive, hardly every few minutes and I do not need to unclip it, I just glance down, even with my worsening eyesight I need only see the position of the needle, not actually read a number, thus the superiority of all analog readouts over digital, they provide relative information over the passage of time. Yes, you can break an spg if you try hard enough and often they will continue to work even after the glass is broken.

Like I said, the AI stuff appeals to a certain set of the diver population, if it is what you like and enjoy, by all means get one and use it. As a minimalist, I would never have one.

N

---------- Post added July 2nd, 2015 at 10:32 AM ----------

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. To summarize, the main "objection" to AI seems to be cost, followed by it delivering information that's not necessarily relevant. There's also some anecdotal evidence of equipment failure, and I'd agree that the sync process (I have an Oceanic) can be finicky.

I asked not to start a flame war, but since AI seems to be dismissed as a matter of course, much like the response you'd give a non-diver as to why you wear a mask rather than goggles while diving. I was wondering if there was some major risk or nuance I wasn't aware of (much like the goggles analogy) and this seems to come down to preference and budget.

For me, I really like have everything in a watch-sized unit on my wrist (Oceanic OCi), and the ability to adjust my air consumption based on ATR data. For example, if my ATR seems low, I'll usually notice I'm breathing too fast, and I'll calm myself down. This, and a fairly intensive fitness regime (I'm training for a triathlon, talk about expensive equipment) has done wonders for my SAC. Could I do all that manually? Probably, but being able to see your ATR extend as you consciously control your breathing, is kind of a "real time SAC."

Thanks for the enlightenment!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There is nothing wrong with AI if you want one, it is just that with AI you still need an SPG and of course an SPG does not need an AI sender. The AI rig needs to have two pieces of equipment where the SPG rig needs only the one.

You do not use an spg/AI pressure reading to "adjust" your air consumption over the course of a dive. Your biological requirement for oxygen is fixed and not adjustable over the course of a dive unless you plan to restrict your breathing producing a hypoxic condition, skip breathing. Not recommended as it will produce headaches, possible loss of consciousness and may be related to decompression sickness and is a very bad thing to do.

You adjust your air consumption by improving your physical fitness, loosing (body) weight where applicable, improving your diving efficiency, trim and water comfort, reducing unnecessary motion (learning to be still).

N