Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[flots am]

I'll insist on pointing out there's a difference between being suicidially irrational and just being so sloppy you get yourself killed.

The difference is what, exactly?

What level of completely unqualified cave diving would you have recommended for their skill and certification level?

flots.

 

[drrich2]

This creates the opportunity for a "Cave Organization" to create a "license" system as I described in prior posts, preferably with prior discussion/involvement with the authorities, to facilitate the carrying out of the activity (cave diving) in a safer and better organised manner and for the protection of the cave (i.e. within the Charter/Scope of the Cave Organization).

And here we get to the crux of a mindset difference. Many of us have no desire to 'police' other people who pose a danger only to themselves. The purpose of laws to control dangerous behavior is usually to protect people from each other. People are responsible for themselves.

The involvement of the minor was a different issue, but evidently a rare one such that it shouldn't drive policy.

And ironically, as is often the case with regulatory changes made in response to bad outcomes, I don't think your system being in place would've prevented the bad outcome we're discussing. It's an isolated place. Probably not a high traffic place. Odds are good they'd not have run across anybody.

For that matter, when you go cave diving, do you arrive at the site and first go around checking all the vehicles for some sort of license, and then watch everyone who dives to see whether they try to go in some sort of cave?

What ever happened to people minding their own business?

Richard.

 

[gianaameri]

And here we get to the crux of a mindset difference. Many of us have no desire to 'police' other people who pose a danger only to themselves. The purpose of laws to control dangerous behavior is usually to protect people from each other. People are responsible for themselves.

The involvement of the minor was a different issue, but evidently a rare one such that it shouldn't drive policy.

And ironically, as is often the case with regulatory changes made in response to bad outcomes, I don't think your system being in place would've prevented the bad outcome we're discussing. It's an isolated place. Probably not a high traffic place. Odds are good they'd not have run across anybody.

For that matter, when you go cave diving, do you arrive at the site and first go around checking all the vehicles for some sort of license, and then watch everyone who dives to see whether they try to go in some sort of cave?

What ever happened to people minding their own business?

Richard.

Untrained cave divers in a cave damage the cave and are a danger to themselves and other fellow divers (I.e. ME).

I'd prefer to report them because Darwin is sometimes too slow (and it is not nice to have kids/people die in the caves I dive).

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[FinnMom]

Education helps. With more general public education on the subject the kid's friends and Spiveys family would have had multiple sources providing negative feedback about his choices/actions/future plans. If nothing else were to change at least they might now be forced to say something along the lines of "I guess you were right" instead of these weak defenses of him and attempts to blame the site or the sport as too dangerous.

Caves are facinating, beautiful and interesting in many ways. The general public would proably enjoy learning more about them. More education might also increase interest in preserving the state's aquifiers instead of selling bottled water. Lets make a greater effort to present the caves and cave diving to the general public, using the opportunity to provide a extremely strong message: no cave certification = no cave diving. Lets try to make sure everyone knows what risk a diver like this was taking so when it happens again (a) it might be a rarer occurance and (b) the public will have the knowledge to better judge where the blame rightfully lies.

With as many caves as there are in Florida you would think the level of general public knowlege would be completely different.

 

[ItsBruce]

6 Rescued After Canoe Mishap - Police & Fire - Marina del Rey, CA Patch

my guess.

Sorry for the somwwhat OT post, but it's been 6 pages and I need closure on this.

1. I'm impressed you found this.
2. Even though it happened in my own back yard, I was not aware of it.
3. That wasn't my mishap.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What difference would it make if the horribly planned and executed dive was "supposed to be" shallower?

It makes no difference to anybody if they were planning on 20' or 300'. They went to 233' and they're still dead.

Since they staged their deco bottles at 130 feet, I think it's pretty safe to assume they planned to exceed recreational depth limits ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ItsBruce]

The situation you describe is similar wherever there are caves.

Now, if the authorities set a rule for cave entry by the general public on public land (i.e. "NO OW DIVERS...), then , particularly where a minor is involved, the authority has a duty to enforce the rule when it becomes aware of the breach (i.e. by a fellow diver reporting the breach, for example) where there is a danger to the general public (i.e. a minor and/or fellow divers).

This creates the opportunity for a "Cave Organization" to create a "license" system as I described in prior posts, preferably with prior discussion/involvement with the authorities, to facilitate the carrying out of the activity (cave diving) in a safer and better organised manner and for the protection of the cave (i.e. within the Charter/Scope of the Cave Organization).

Once the system is in place, it fosters a culture of not diving in the cave without the "license" and displaying the "license" (at least when asked)... and it is easier for the complying members to identify and reporting the Spiveys (there will continue to be Spiveys same as in hunting there continues to be poachers unlawfully killing and stealing "game").

People will continue to dive and die in caves (maybe the rebreather kills them and it has nothing to do with their lack of training or the cave, or it is just human error on that particular bad day), but if the Cave Organizations feel, as they do, that there should be NO SPIVEYS IN THE CAVE, and the authorities feel, as they do, that there should be NO OW DIVERS IN THE CAVE, then with a working and effective system people will not die for lack of cave training (or to the very least there will be less untrained divers in the cave damaging the cave).

Off to catch a plane for one week of rebreather cave diving (fingers crossed!).

One must have a license to drive a car on public roadways. There are police officers on those roadways. There are other drivers on those roadways. Many of those other drivers have cell phones and can call the police and can easily report another driver if that other driver is not licensed. Hey, look at how many unlicensed drivers there are. Of course, we usually learn they are unlicensed after they have crashed.

Now, imagine there are no police or other drivers around. Who is to stop an unlicensed driver?

How is it different in cave diving?

Licensing divers may make some people feel good about how they are protecting idiots, but it won't actually protect anyone.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

One must have a license to drive a car on public roadways. There are police officers on those roadways. There are other drivers on those roadways. Many of those other drivers have cell phones and can call the police and can easily report another driver if that other driver is not licensed. Hey, look at how many unlicensed drivers there are. Of course, we usually learn they are unlicensed after they have crashed.

Now, imagine there are no police or other drivers around. Who is to stop an unlicensed driver?

How is it different in cave diving?

Licensing divers may make some people feel good about how they are protecting idiots, but it won't actually protect anyone.

There are also plenty of people driving around without insurance, even though it's required by law. Those of us who abide by the law pay extra on our insurance to cover ourselves in the event we get hit by one of those people.

Laws don't stop people from doing stupid, irresponsible things.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Ron Lee]

You must be the "guilty until proven innocent" type of person. Those of us that are questioning and asking for proof still haven't seen any so we err on the side of caution (as in not accusing people of being in some way responsible or complicit in the death of a child). On the other hand, you assume guilty because someone on the internet said, "...the cave diving community were aware of it. This has been reported."

No need to get emotional and jump to conclusions as you have done in that post. I never stated that CAVE DIVERS knew that the kid was diving in a cave. I just reported the differing statements in this thread.

The video notes that one person states that they had been at that site "many" times.

 

[mermaid0sea]

I tried to read through all these posts. Lots of surmising etc... My one question is did anyone know these people? Or the other divers involved in recovery?