Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

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Tech diving is more expensive than I realized, and I've JUST started broaching the surface AND I was warned before I started. People think they can "dabble" for cheap, but it's simply not so. Trimix is for people with MUCH deeper pockets than I. I do have to say that Tech training and gear is worth every penny, and that I was able to afford a lot of it as a broke college kid....so as long as you spread it out and prioritize it, it's not too bad. $300 trimix fills are where Rebreathers almost start to make sense :D
 
so what????? You need a reel at LR, in fact it is one of the longer runs to the gold in the area of the heavily dove caves.
Your original response to not seeing any reels on them was to a photo of them at Little River. The gold line at Little River begins at the outer limits of the cavern zone.
 
One of the early videos I saw had a guy saying that he sat there (presumably at Eagle's Nest) many times and wondered if they would make it back.

If it's the same person I'm thinking of, he was a non-diving friend of the family. Clearly, his family was enabling his activity and they probably should have done more to protect the kid from his reckless father. I have yet to see any evidence that anyone in the cave diving or general diving communities knew that the 15 year old was doing these dives, yet people keep suggesting that we (i.e. divers) should have somehow prevented it.

Unfortunately, this is not true of everyone in the cave diving community. I know cave divers that don't say anything. I know cave divers that will tell people about caves that are considered advanced by most cave divers and not ask about certification level. This does need to change.

Agreed, but I wasn't speaking in general terms. I was talking specifically about a 15 year old doing staged deco Trimix dives in a cave. I find it very hard to believe that people in the cave diving community were aware of this and just ignored it. So far, there is no reason to believe that was the case, but for some reason a handful of people keep pointing their finger (over and over and over) at the cave diving community and asking why we didn't do something to stop this. For example...

Do you have a link to the video?

It would have been unusual for no one to have noticed the repeat behaviour of the decreased.

They were not ghosts and neither made it a secret to anyone as to what they intended to do and did repeatedly.

Cave diving is a small world/community.

We have already covered this. They didn't make it secret to their friends/family, but they didn't seem to be hanging out with any divers either. I asked you this before, but you didn't answer (too busy repeating the same question). What do you propose that the diving community could have done to stop this? Nobody seems to have known about the 15 year old and the father wasn't known to be doing anything illegal. Both victims ignored dozens of warning signs and disclaimers about the dangers of untrained cave diving. The only diver that is known to have interacted with the father told him to get training or you will die and he didn't seem to know the son was involved. What could you or I say to the father to stop him from continuing down this path and bringing his son with him?
 
Tech diving is more expensive than I realized, and I've JUST started broaching the surface AND I was warned before I started. People think they can "dabble" for cheap, but it's simply not so. Trimix is for people with MUCH deeper pockets than I. I do have to say that Tech training and gear is worth every penny, and that I was able to afford a lot of it as a broke college kid....so as long as you spread it out and prioritize it, it's not too bad. $300 trimix fills are where Rebreathers almost start to make sense :D

To be fair, the initial fill is the super expensive part. In reality, most of that gas is for reserves, and you don't use much of it.
 
I was talking specifically about a 15 year old doing staged deco Trimix dives in a cave.

Now we have him/them diving mix?
 
We have already covered this. They didn't make it secret to their friends/family, but they didn't seem to be hanging out with any divers either. I asked you this before, but you didn't answer (too busy repeating the same question). What do you propose that the diving community could have done to stop this? Nobody seems to have known about the 15 year old and the father wasn't known to be doing anything illegal. Both victims ignored dozens of warning signs and disclaimers about the dangers of untrained cave diving. The only diver that is known to have interacted with the father told him to get training or you will die and he didn't seem to know the son was involved. What could you or I say to the father to stop him from continuing down this path and bringing his son with him?

The NSS-CDS, NACD, IUCRR... should realise that the current attitude at the top, middle, and bottom and the current system in place of displaying warning signs is NOT working.

I have put forward a suggestion in a post long ago and lost somewhere in this thread, and that is a "license" system, web based (non-governmental self-regulatory system run by "Cave Associations"), where the diver before diving a cave has to fill a form, annex Cave C-card and Insurance, provide a "good-reason" for wanting to dive that cave and in the specifics that portion of the cave.

"License" gets emailed back, and when you park your car you are required to display on the window the "licenses" for each of the divers.

No "license" - diver takes the picture of the car and plate and offending divers and emails it to NSS-CDS, NACD, IUCRR... letter goes out to the Sheriff, Sheriff gets off his chair and knocks on the door of the "rule-breaker" and makes enquiries (especially if the cave is on public land and there is a sign put there saying "NO OW DIVERS...").

Short of that, maybe we should all stop moaning on the internet about cave diving getting bad publicity and getting closed...

...and I don't buy nobody in the knowledge knew these two characters were doing what they were doing (and press reports indeed indicate otherwise).
 
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Nobody seems to have known about the 15 year old and the father wasn't known to be doing anything illegal.

A.) Plenty of people knew Spivey was cave diving without a cave cert. Plenty of people knew Spivey was taking Sanchez diving, without any cert. The math is pretty easy to do. But in case that's still hard to fathom, they were both posting about their exploits - including pictures - on FaceBook and cave diving forums. Unless people thought they were going to dive the pool at LR - which I believe is about 10ft deep - with all this gear...

Darren-Spivey-Dillon-Sanchez-20131227193603.jpg


B.) We really ought to stop pronouncing that Spivey wasn't doing anything illegal. As to whether Spivey could or would be charged and convicted... well, he dodged that bullet by killing himself. Had he survived and Sanchez died the Florida statute for "aggravated manslaughter of a minor" could have probably applied. Described in Florida 782.07 as follows "A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(b)(2) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree." (827.03 specifies culpable negligence as "An intentional act that could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child.")

I think you could produce a line of expert witnesses out the door and around the corner to testify that a diver with no cave training or certs, taking an uncertified minor cave diving, particularly at Eagle's Nest, without proper training, gear, breathing gas mixes, or adequate gas supply would clearly meet the burden of "reasonably be expected to result in injury."

Even before the fatal accident on Christmas - or if they had both survived that dive - 827.03(b)(2) is a crime in and of itself, and [SIZE=-1]a person who "willfully or by culpable negligence neglects a child without causing bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child commits a felony of the third degree[/SIZE]." (My emphasis added, to point out that the act doesn't have to actually result in harm in order to be a crime.)

Of course you'll say that "cave diving" isn't the same as "neglect" saying something like "neglect means starving your child, or forcing them to stand outside in the cold or something like that, right?" But the statute defines neglect as "[SIZE=-1]A caregiver’s failure or omission to provide a child with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain the child’s physical and mental health that a prudent person would consider essential for the well-being of the child. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Neglect of a child may be based on repeated conduct or on a single incident or omission that results in, or could reasonably be expected to result in, serious physical or mental injury, or a substantial risk of death." [/SIZE](My emphasis added.) Again, there would be no shortage of expert witnesses willing to testify that taking Dillon Sanchez cave diving constituted a failure to provide Dillon with the supervision that a prudent person would consider essential for his well-being, and this failure could reasonably be expected to result in injury or substantial risk of death. I would imagine you'd have a hard time finding a single expert witness willing to testify that this is NOT the case.
 
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But sports in general and Diving should not be a rich man's sport. Anyone should have access to follow their passions without regard to $$$. That said OW diving is enough for me - I have no desire to go caving. But I support someone that wants to do it and is trying to save money.
So if you chose to deliberately short cut either equipment or training - that decision should be upon you and this BIG NANNY STATE we are trying to build to save someone from their own deliberate acts seems silly to me. I have 4 kids that I try to teach every day. Is it now on me to teach everyone that enters the water?

If I see someone wearing a boat anchor as a weight belt - I may comment to them but I am not standing in the way of their actions.

1. If someone's bad choices may impact me, then it is on me to dissuade them. If I don't try, and I am impacted, I can't complain.

2. As far as the nanny state, the question is whether the state is protecting someone against their own bad choices or against being led into bad choices by someone else. If cigarette advertising wasn't restricted and warnings mandatory, do you think cigarette companies would hesitate to tell you how good they were for you and would have scientific proof for you? Do you think pharmaceutical companies would voluntarily warn you of side-effects and potential risks?
 

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