Three strikes and you're out... I've now written off PADI

[ajtoady]

Individuals are what makes life interesting! If I had not persevered I would not be diving now. The first LDS I stopped at the PADI instructor made me feel insignificant and foolish. The second PADI LDS that I stopped at, bent over backwards to make me feel welcome and wanted. Needless to say I went with the second shop and have yet to regret it. The men and women I have come to know thru this shop are great and above all safe divers. I deal with the public and with corporations in my two businesses and have learned that you don't sweat the small ****, and when it comes down to it, most is! Move on and find some one else to dive with!

 

[pir8]

Seems to me I remember an old calculas instructor that was really a Psychiatrist, but loved teaching math. Anyway he showed us a proof that given any specific type group of people, 10% will be A$$holes. Now with PADI's population that can be a fairly large group to deal with.

 

[Kern]

Actually, it depends on your decompression model. You off gas dissolved gases fastest when at the highest gradient (shallow stop), but if you look at any of the bubble-models (RGBM, VPM/B) they want to keep you deeper. The dissolved-gas model takes you to the shallowest depth you can go to without bubbles forming, and holds you there while you off gas. The bubble models assume that micro-bubbles are continually forming and redissolving in your blood (and other tissues) during your ascent. By keeping you deeper, you keep these bubbles smaller, where they aren't going to cause problems.

Any technical diver would scoff at the notion of doing their deco at the shallowest depth possible.

So I wouldn't necessarily agree that you "off gas quicker at 5m than at 3m", but it is certainly a better place to be doing your off gassing. A deeper stop (which controls microbubble formation better) is going to work to prevent Type II DCS (neurological), whereas the shallower stop is going to work to prevent Type I DCS (muscular, joints). I'd rather take a Type I hit over a Type II any day, so I'd rather do my stops deeper (even if I had do keep them shorter as a result).

Regarding the necessity of safety-stops, you need to do them with EACH ascent. Certainly they aren't required, and if conditions dictate that it isn't safe to remain in the water (being circled by a great-white shark, being blown out to sea, low on gas), you should skip it and get out (you can fix bent, but you can't fix drowned). Consider this case -- you complete your safety stop and drop something, you bounce back down to 20m to pick it up. Can you skip your safety stop on this second ascent because you've already off gassed? No! One of the purposes of the safety stop is to let microbubbles in your blood complete their circulation and get trapped in your lung tissue where they will not cause DCS symptoms when they expand further during your ascent to the surface. When you drop back down, you compress these trapped bubbles until they are small enough to leave your lungs and go back into circulation. A slow (10m/minute) ascent rate and a second safety stop is just as important this time as it was the first time, to get these now-expanding bubbles to "trap" in your lungs again, rather than somewhere else in your body.

Is buddy-separation an emergency warranting skipping your safety stop? In my opinion, no, unless where is reason to believe that your buddy is going to need your assistance getting to or once on the surface.

The OP is talking about NDL dives. On NDL dives, bubble models do not want to keep you deeper, apart from arbitrary decisions that have nothing to do with the model, Pyle stops etc, there is no deco information at all. The only requirement is to follow the models ascent rate. On an NDL dive you will off gas faster at 3mt than at 5mt, period. Not that there will be much difference.

When separated from a buddy, I ascend straight to the surface at 10mt/minute, no safety stop. If close to the NDL, ascending from deeper than 30 mts, have over exerted, etc, I join my buddy & call the dive. If I'm no where near the NDL limit, shallow water, etc, we descend & continue the dive.

 

[The Kraken]

Deefstes,

Always remember the difference between that which is "required" and that which is "recommended".

I think there is a big problem nowadays with people reading too much into instruction.

Case in point, it is stated that lack of proper hydration, which can be interpreted as "dehydration", can accelerate the onset of DCS.

Now keep in mind that this statement says that it "can", not that it "will". I see people on dive boats all the time drinking at least 2 gallons of water before a dive. Jesus Christus, football palyers don't use that much water in one quarter of playing.

It's just life and where you are, my friend. You pays your monies and you takes yer chances.

Life is not perfect.

I know this is really sucky advice, but there it is.

the K

 

[paddler3d]

Actually, it depends on your decompression model. You off gas dissolved gases fastest when at the highest gradient (shallow stop), but if you look at any of the bubble-models (RGBM, VPM/B) they want to keep you deeper. The dissolved-gas model takes you to the shallowest depth you can go to without bubbles forming, and holds you there while you off gas. The bubble models assume that micro-bubbles are continually forming and redissolving in your blood (and other tissues) during your ascent. By keeping you deeper, you keep these bubbles smaller, where they aren't going to cause problems.

Any technical diver would scoff at the notion of doing their deco at the shallowest depth possible.

So I wouldn't necessarily agree that you "off gas quicker at 5m than at 3m", but it is certainly a better place to be doing your off gassing. A deeper stop (which controls microbubble formation better) is going to work to prevent Type II DCS (neurological), whereas the shallower stop is going to work to prevent Type I DCS (muscular, joints). I'd rather take a Type I hit over a Type II any day, so I'd rather do my stops deeper (even if I had do keep them shorter as a result).

Regarding the necessity of safety-stops, you need to do them with EACH ascent. Certainly they aren't required, and if conditions dictate that it isn't safe to remain in the water (being circled by a great-white shark, being blown out to sea, low on gas), you should skip it and get out (you can fix bent, but you can't fix drowned). Consider this case -- you complete your safety stop and drop something, you bounce back down to 20m to pick it up. Can you skip your safety stop on this second ascent because you've already off gassed? No! One of the purposes of the safety stop is to let microbubbles in your blood complete their circulation and get trapped in your lung tissue where they will not cause DCS symptoms when they expand further during your ascent to the surface. When you drop back down, you compress these trapped bubbles until they are small enough to leave your lungs and go back into circulation. A slow (10m/minute) ascent rate and a second safety stop is just as important this time as it was the first time, to get these now-expanding bubbles to "trap" in your lungs again, rather than somewhere else in your body.

Is buddy-separation an emergency warranting skipping your safety stop? In my opinion, no, unless where is reason to believe that your buddy is going to need your assistance getting to or once on the surface.

I like what he said.

No offense, but your postings come off a wee sarcastic. Sarcasm just doesn't translate well.

Could it also be language barriers?

Throw in a healthy dose of sarcasm and you may as well be Hungary and Germany with NATO right now.

 

[seaducer]

I know that is a bit dramatic but if everybody says "Why should I?" then the problem only gets worse and never better. I am sure if Padi knew of the problems, they would be more likely to address them than if they are never notified.

I don't know, from the descriptions there seems to be very little to wory over. Getting involved in somebody else's business has become somewhat common, maybe it always has been, I remember seeing that character trait made fun of on old sitcoms as well as new. Very few people are qualified to step in and tell others how to live their lives and run their businesses.

Very good point and, to be fair, my instructor taught me very little if anything pertaining to signaling devices. I think this raises an interesting question, how many agencies actually do teach students in the 1 star or 2 star course how and where to use signaling devices?

Pretty sure that signalling devices and how/when to use them were topics in my OW and AOW manual...from PADI no less

Course if the type of diving typical to your location doesn't require them I suppose they would not be covered, and indeed I do not remember my instructor discussing them either, but they were in the book.

Of course none of them are complicated, they come with instructions if needed and aside from a little practice to learn how to deploy an SMB, I doubt they really need "instruction" to begin with.

As for your encounters, aside from the one who did his own thing(and haven't we all from time to time?), can you be absolutely certain you did not contribute to their demeanor? In my experience observing and participating in pi$$ing matches, it is the rare occurance that one of the sides is *not* an ahole, as quite often both have to be or nothing is ever noticed.

Im just saying.

And to be clear, I see nothing wrong with being a jerk...I am quite good at it myself when I want to be...

 

[Walter]

It will not come as a surprise that I'm not a fan of PADI. Reading your original post, I only saw one thing that could reflect directly on PADI. PADI doesn't advocate ignoring the planned depth of dives, drinking after diving, drinking while diving, nor being rude to other divers. If they did, I would agree with you. They don't, so PADI is not to blame.

Safety stops are, by definition, not required. They can be skipped. I dived for years before even hearing about them. The problem is in the definitions. If you are using PADI's Recreational Dive Planner (what everyone else calls dive tables), you are using a table that uses different definitions. Safety stops with the RDP are required. They are what everyone else calls decompression stops because they are required by the tables. It may be a basic misunderstanding between you and the PADI instructor that resulted in what you thought was rude behavior. He was talking about decompression stops, you were talking about safety stops, but because of different definitions of terms, you didn't understand each other. He likely wasn't diving before the RDP was introduced (over 20 years ago) and probably has never used a table other than the RDP. He probably thinks all safety stops are required, just as you thought all safety stops are optional.

 

[knotical]

Walter, you might well have hit on part of the disconnect. But a minor clarification:

The RDP requires "safety stops" only on certain dives: those of 100 ft or greater depth and/or those within three pressure groups of a no decompression limit.
They are recommended on all dives.

 

[Afishianado]

since PADI neither has policies for people to behave the way that you describe nor do they adhere to that school of thought as a guideline/recommendation, how can you attribute the behavior to them in any way? It is also not a policy, school of thought, or recommendation of PADI to bash other agencies(Disagreement or alternate view does not equal bashing) so you cannot attribute this behavior to PADI either. People are people, man....some of them are cool and some of them are O2 thieves.

I can't stand the Honda street racers I encounter on the road. I don't blame Honda.

~Chris

 

[DevonDiver]

Seems odd to blame the agency, for individuals who fail to maintain/follow/understand that agencies standards and practices.

The PADI position on safety stops is very clear. They are recommended on every dive. They are a mandatory part of dive planning for dives below 30m and certain repetitive dives. However, they are still only a safety measure - and would be disregarded if an emergency meant that getting to the surface quickly was critical.

Can you criticise PADI for that?

The PADI position on recommended maximum depths is clearly defined. So is their recommendation that divers only dive within the limits of their training and experience. They publish (and all students & instructors sign and agree to abide to..) the 'Statement of Safe Diving Practices'. Each course specifically details what it enables the diver to do and what they are not trained to do.

Can you criticise PADI for that?

It seems to me that the OP is criticising PADI for the actions of individuals who are not following PADI's guidelines. There's no logic to that...

Moreover, it just p*sses me off royally when someone is not willing to discuss the merits or demerits of a certain practice but simply expects me to bow...

Customer pays money. Dive operation provides boat, kit and guide to take you diving.

Dive operation has standard operating procedures applicable to the local environment and based on a long history of risk assessments. Dive operations expect their customers to adhere to those procedures.

I can appreciate that many dive operators/pros would not feel that 'debating' or 'discussing' was a required part of their customer service provision.

It is nice if dive staff have the time/energy to validate every one of their operating procedures with customers, but it is also understandable that they sometimes won't.