Death by Diving

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Do you think there may be a tendency for some people to be embarrassed by such an elementary reveiw? I know I've seen people exhibit various levels of poor attitude when asked to demo skills before being allowed to dive with certain dive resorts. Do you think the two attitudes are related?

I think there are at least a few contributing factors.

  • Busy schedules that make scheduling difficult
  • Refusal to accept that they might need help with skills due to embarassment
  • An under-appreciation of the way skills deteriate without use
  • An under-appreciation of the risks involved in scuba diving when training is neglected

But whatever the underlying cause, it all leads to irresponsibility. And I don't know how to convince people to consider their need for training and practice more seriously.
 
I'm newly certified with hubby - PADI OW. We have quickly realized we are in the minority of new certs that take it seriously. Friends of ours who have done the weekend PADI course actually smirk at the level that we're taking it by gasp, diving in the Great Lakes & local scuba park or, shock, doing pool time to get weights figured out and work on buoyancy.

I think the faster you get certified, the easier you think this is and the less seriously you take it.

I"m in this for the love of diving, not for an extra thing to do on vacation - I think that is the difference between those who take it seriously and those who don't.
 
I"m in this for the love of diving, not for an extra thing to do on vacation - I think that is the difference between those who take it seriously and those who don't.

There's a lot to be said for that. I'm finding it increasingly tedious to read posts from the instructors on this board who are constantly slamming the "state of training" in scuba diving, and promoting themselves as the greatest instructor since Cousteau invented the regulator. Their views tend to be skewed by the self-selecting nature of the students they teach.

As an independent instructor, I see this first-hand. The level of students I get today are a far higher quality, generally-speaking, than those I used to get when I taught for a dive shop. The reason is because (a) they are motivated to seek out an instructor that provides a level of quality that suits their needs rather than simply looking for the cheapest, fastest or easiest path to a C-card, and (b) they are willing to pay a premium price for a premium product. Scuba instruction is like everything else in life ... you tend to get what you pay for. And in this case that refers to both the financial investment and the investment in effort required of the student. And the process of learning scuba diving is as much about the motivation and effort of the student as it is the motivation and effort of the instructor. So those of us who cater to motivated students will generally turn out better divers.

But that has at least as much to do with the quality of the students we attract as with the quality of the course we offer. It takes both to turn out a good diver.

Agencies offer shortened, dumbed-down courses for a reason ... because there's a lot of people out there who want to buy them. The majority of people who learn to scuba dive will never be interested in doing anything like diving in rigorous conditions ... or even diving somewhere where they don't have a guide or DM to plan their dive for them. It doesn't occur to these people that they would need rescue skills because, to their mind, that's what they're paying the DM for.

Right or wrong ... that's the reality of where we are in diving today. And the only way you're ever going to change that is to exclude those people from diving. I get the sense that's exactly what Thal is proposing ... and in an unregulated market, it's an unrealistic expectation, because as long as there's a demand for a product there will always be someone willing to sell it.

The biggest problem I see is that when you hand somebody an OW card, there's no way of knowing what kind of instruction they received ... to use Thal's analogy, you can't tell whether you're looking at a BMW or a Yugo.

I long ago decided that I don't want to offer my students the Yugo. I can't claim to offer them the BMW either ... probably more in the Toyota or Subaru range. But for where I dive, I try to offer them sufficient training to be able to dive here with some level of self-sufficiency coming out of their initial training. Frankly, I think most instructors want to do that ... regardless of the agency they teach for. No instructor wants to wake up some morning and read about a former student of theirs dying from doing something stupid. But as Lynne and others have alluded, there will always be a percentage of people out there who will do something stupid, no matter what level of training they received, or how many people told them not to do it.

Some people just insist on learning things the hard way ... and nothing anybody can do will ever change that. It's human nature ... and there ain't a scuba instructor on the planet who can change human nature, no matter how much he insists that he can.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I was addressing statements such as:

"No matter what happens, there will be a certain percentage of deaths no matter how long we make classes, no matter what regulations we put in place, or how we try to protect people from themselves."

or

"Short of selective breeding for common sense, I see no way we will ever get rid of deaths through poor judgment or thrill-seeking."

There are ways to solve both these issues.

BTW: there is very little on site supervision except when institutional vessels are involved, so you'd not have to be paying for a supervisor at your favorite local shore diving site.

Some people just don't want to listen or learn. If someone is in the "scientific community" they have already demonstrated a willingness to learn.
 
Plant a tree for kids to climb and fall out of.
Add a mask and snorkel to the bathtub toys.
Learn CPR and how to build a billy cart.
Before you have any.

Now that's training.
 
There's a lot to be said for that. I'm finding it increasingly tedious to read posts from the instructors on this board who are constantly slamming the "state of training" in scuba diving, and promoting themselves as the greatest instructor since Cousteau invented the regulator. Their views tend to be skewed by the self-selecting nature of the students they teach.

As an independent instructor, I see this first-hand. The level of students I get today are a far higher quality, generally-speaking, than those I used to get when I taught for a dive shop. The reason is because (a) they are motivated to seek out an instructor that provides a level of quality that suits their needs rather than simply looking for the cheapest, fastest or easiest path to a C-card, and (b) they are willing to pay a premium price for a premium product. Scuba instruction is like everything else in life ... you tend to get what you pay for. And in this case that refers to both the financial investment and the investment in effort required of the student. And the process of learning scuba diving is as much about the motivation and effort of the student as it is the motivation and effort of the instructor. So those of us who cater to motivated students will generally turn out better divers.

But that has at least as much to do with the quality of the students we attract as with the quality of the course we offer. It takes both to turn out a good diver.

Agencies offer shortened, dumbed-down courses for a reason ... because there's a lot of people out there who want to buy them. The majority of people who learn to scuba dive will never be interested in doing anything like diving in rigorous conditions ... or even diving somewhere where they don't have a guide or DM to plan their dive for them. It doesn't occur to these people that they would need rescue skills because, to their mind, that's what they're paying the DM for.

Right or wrong ... that's the reality of where we are in diving today. And the only way you're ever going to change that is to exclude those people from diving. I get the sense that's exactly what Thal is proposing ... and in an unregulated market, it's an unrealistic expectation, because as long as there's a demand for a product there will always be someone willing to sell it.

The biggest problem I see is that when you hand somebody an OW card, there's no way of knowing what kind of instruction they received ... to use Thal's analogy, you can't tell whether you're looking at a BMW or a Yugo.

I long ago decided that I don't want to offer my students the Yugo. I can't claim to offer them the BMW either ... probably more in the Toyota or Subaru range. But for where I dive, I try to offer them sufficient training to be able to dive here with some level of self-sufficiency coming out of their initial training. Frankly, I think most instructors want to do that ... regardless of the agency they teach for. No instructor wants to wake up some morning and read about a former student of theirs dying from doing something stupid. But as Lynne and others have alluded, there will always be a percentage of people out there who will do something stupid, no matter what level of training they received, or how many people told them not to do it.

Some people just insist on learning things the hard way ... and nothing anybody can do will ever change that. It's human nature ... and there ain't a scuba instructor on the planet who can change human nature, no matter how much he insists that he can.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,
You should be commended for your insightful post. It is reassuring to know that there are many people out there (not just divers or dive instructors) that genuinely care about other people. The world is truly a better place because of you and others like you.

Thank you,
Gary
 
I'm newly certified with hubby - PADI OW. We have quickly realized we are in the minority of new certs that take it seriously. Friends of ours who have done the weekend PADI course actually smirk at the level that we're taking it by gasp, diving in the Great Lakes & local scuba park or, shock, doing pool time to get weights figured out and work on buoyancy.

I think the faster you get certified, the easier you think this is and the less seriously you take it.

I"m in this for the love of diving, not for an extra thing to do on vacation - I think that is the difference between those who take it seriously and those who don't.

Good for you, ScubaBing!


I'd like to point out that some experienced divers on this board have every bit as much as an attitude problem. I'm in AZ, and get to dive solidly about 4 times a year. Lately, it's less. :(

However, when I relate things I've learned, or with which I have issues . . . because it was in a pool, I am subject to mocking and jeering rejoinder.

So, a diver gets certified, and does pool diving to keep skills up . . . . only to be laughed at??? :hm:

The unpracticed diver is more likely to die from panic.

The experienced diver is more likely to die from not following the rules.

Isn't that really it?
 
Good for you, ScubaBing!


I'd like to point out that some experienced divers on this board have every bit as much as an attitude problem.
<snip>

So, a diver gets certified, and does pool diving to keep skills up . . . . only to be laughed at??? :hm:

Those being laughed at for practicing in a pool are generally much better divers than those laughing at them, it's just that the hecklers don't know the difference between good and themselves.

Another attitude problem comes from the fact that many students are graduated and never told that they need to work on anything for themselves after a class. Why? Because the method that "The Average Diver" is taught skills is unfortunately too rudimentary and "un-failable". I also find a lack of video review, the most powerful tool I have ever seen in scuba training, completely disregarded.

Ultimately the problem is a dive industry that is, at the top IMO, motivated by profit and the fact that there isn't much in diving so they had better grab all they can. This is most problematic in my mind as I feel the head mucky-mucks at PADI, SSI, etc seem to be dangerously insulated from the world outside Tahiti or wherever they are going diving. As a matter of fact, do these people even exist? Google turns up nothing for PADI, SSI, and SDI/TDI/ERDI. But I got hits on NAUI, GUE, and UTD. Guess who gets my dollar for transparency, if nothing else.

Sorry to rant a bit, but there are so many causes as to attitudes and I find one of the biggest to be that no one ever says "You need to work on this" in mainstream training. Of course folks think they are the greatest thing in the water, no one has ever told them that they suck. I know people like that, and I fear diving with them.

Peace,
Greg
 
This is most problematic in my mind as I feel the head mucky-mucks at PADI, SSI, etc seem to be dangerously insulated from the world.......As a matter of fact, do these people even exist? Google turns up nothing for PADI, SSI, and SDI/TDI/ERDI.

Greg.... you can't find them because they don't want to be found!

signs_tin_foil_hats.jpg
 
kanonfodr:
This is most problematic in my mind as I feel the head mucky-mucks at PADI, SSI, etc seem to be dangerously insulated from the world.......As a matter of fact, do these people even exist? Google turns up nothing for PADI, SSI, and SDI/TDI/ERDI.

Wait, what? padi.com is the first result in google for "padi" and their "contact us" page lists their offices worldwide with addresses and telephone numbers (Rancho Santa Margarita, CA in the US). I just called them and they answered the phone.

SSI - divessi.com - Located in in Ft Collins.

Or, did I miss the joke? :confused:
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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