Death by Diving

[lamont]

Evey agency provides students with the minimum 'tools' for safe recreational diving. It's when divers neglect to utilise those tools that preventable accidents happen.

IMHO, the solution to preventing those accidents is not to give the divers more tools. It is too address the reasons why those divers fail to utilise the tools they already possess.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. It wasn't an objection. I was just expressing that I felt there were more immediate issues to be dealt with, regards diver training and accident prevention, and it was better to address those as a priority, before adding more steps and processes.

Well, I can't agree with your statement that we shouldn't give divers additional tools.

Beginning divers do not know when they should begin their ascents so that they surface with adequate gas reserves. That is a problem in my mind, and I think there's a simple and uncomplicated remedy that can be distilled down to the point where every OW recreational vacation diver can have it as an additional tool in the toolbox. I don't understand the argument against it. Largely this is *not* a zero-sum game, and promoting some trivial gas management rules isn't going to make divers any worse at doing OOA drills.

And you also have to fix the underlying problem, though, which is the complete dumbing down of the system to the lowest common denominator. Once you fix the system to get divers mentored by other divers, get their awareness up, get them practicing skills and such, then you've changed the system so much that adding even complicated gas management is only a fraction of what needs to shift. Taking the fundies course as a model, the gas management done in that course is about 30 minutes of lecture -- the rest of the 5 course days is trying to fix everything else.

 

[DevonDiver]

Well, I can't agree with your statement that we shouldn't give divers additional tools.

we shouldn't give divers additional tools....until they're ready for it.

I'm drifting towards just playing devil's advocate here, for the sake of a thought provoking debate, but... I find my student OW's RMV/SAC is so variable that planning dive time through gas consumption expectations is realistically just a shot in the dark...

 

[SC_Hoaty]

we shouldn't give divers additional tools....until they're ready for it.

I'm drifting towards just playing devil's advocate here, for the sake of a thought provoking debate, but... I find my student OW's RMV/SAC is so variable that planning dive time through gas consumption expectations is realistically just a shot in the dark...

Can they determine their SAC? My OW instructor went beyond agency minimum standards, and taught basic gas management. I keep track of my SAC on every dive - it still needs lots of work, but I can use it to figure out if NDL or the contents of my tank will tell me when I need to start heading up. For anything deep, I write the turn pressure on my slate. It also makes me aware of my SAC, and gives me something to work on for improvement.

 

[DevonDiver]

For me, that all depends on the student concerned. If they are doing well at absorbing the info I am giving them, then I will go beyond as far beyond the minimum requirements that can.

At the least, I will introduce SAC at AOW and/or nitrox courses.

 

[The Chairman]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Insinuations and replies to those insinuations have been deleted.

We don't need to act like politicians in here.

Civility is a part of our ToS for a reason.

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[lamont]

we shouldn't give divers additional tools....until they're ready for it.

I'm drifting towards just playing devil's advocate here, for the sake of a thought provoking debate, but... I find my student OW's RMV/SAC is so variable that planning dive time through gas consumption expectations is realistically just a shot in the dark...

Well, we're talking about different things then.

I'd like to see that calculation covered, but I'm mostly just concerned with rock bottom pressures.

 

[Puffer Fish]

Jax, If I don't get to dive for a while (say 2 weeks), I'm in a pool. I like diving... I like being able to spend twice as much time on every dive as regular divers, and I like being able to see things others do not.

But it takes practice.

Anyone that would make fun of someone for practicing, is most likely not a very good diver, and is just trying to rationalize their position.

Good for you, ScubaBing!


I'd like to point out that some experienced divers on this board have every bit as much as an attitude problem. I'm in AZ, and get to dive solidly about 4 times a year. Lately, it's less.

However, when I relate things I've learned, or with which I have issues . . . because it was in a pool, I am subject to mocking and jeering rejoinder.

So, a diver gets certified, and does pool diving to keep skills up . . . . only to be laughed at???

The unpracticed diver is more likely to die from panic.

The experienced diver is more likely to die from not following the rules.

Isn't that really it?

 

[Thalassamania]

Ahh... but there is the rub! According to you, your program has a perfect record, and anyone training under the program would therefore be safe. So the problem is fixable. Except that training everyone is not your problem.

So, that goes back to the original statement. There will always be that small subset...

I understand what your saying. I applaud your thoroughness. And my statement is not throwing my hands up in the air in defeat, rather it is acknowledging that sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

I know an instructor. He has a strong academic background. Worked closely on university, government and scientific endeavors. He does technical diving and exploration. He teaches those as well and is an absolutely amazing storehouse of facts and information and his classes are very thorough.

Several years back he taught a bright young man an advanced class. This person already had some advanced technical training and wanted more. Whether on purpose, or by accident, he sought out this instructor, who is regarded to be among the best by myself and several people I know and whose opinion I respect.

If my class is any indication, the instructor stressed safety, protocol and procedures. If I can believe a long time friend of mine and a diver of 30 years who took the class with this person and who is also a course director for another agency, the class was very thorough.

In spite of all that training, how thorough the class was, or what he was told by other people, that young man died several years later on what should have been a fairly routine dive. Because at the worst, he willingly, knowingly ignored a glaring safety issue, or at at best was careless and overlooked it.

Other people have said this diver pushed too far, too fast. Some have said, right here on this board that he developed and attitude that wasn't safe. That rules didn't apply to him. No matter how good your training is, no matter how good your instructor is, as long as people have free will, there will always be that small subset of people...

How did he fail to detect this yahoo's character flaws?

One thing no one seems to be discussing here is the typical time passage between being "trained" (at whatever level) and when "the typical recreational diver" actually goes diving. A friend of mine is probably not that atypical in that he has had some good training but only dives every couple of years or so.

Because he has had "good training" (and because he considers himself an athlete) he just figures he still knows it. My guess is that one of Thal's students, who for whatever reason quit scientific diving, might still consider herself "well trained" and ready to do a "simple recreational dive" while on vacation several years later. Might she miss something during setup or the dive? Of course -- and then we'd say, "What a horrible instructor for not teaching her X, Y or Z."

It is, of course, possible (although maybe not probable) that ALL of Thal's students would never follow that scenario due to their thorough indoctrination (training ) in the dangers of diving. But, it IS possible!

Too may people think that "Once a diver, always a diver" and when the skills are really rock solid to start with.....

We have a specific protocol, based on exercises that our students learn during the course, that is designed to get someone ready to dive after a layoff. So this is never was a problem for our personnel.

 

[Kingpatzer]

We have a specific protocol, based on exercises that our students learn during the course, that is designed to get someone ready to dive after a layoff. So this is never was a problem for our personnel.

As I noted above, people won't show up for a couple of hours in a pool at nominal cost to refresh skills, why would they show up for your program?

I know your personnel do, but that's the difference between professionals and dilettantes. When people are scientific divers, they're diving professionals. Even if they're training to be assistants, they're still thinking of themselves as something other than recreational divers.

 

[Cave Diver]

How did he fail to detect this yahoo's character flaws?

Some people are very good at providing the answers people want to hear in order to get what they want. If you don't believe that, just look at our last election.