Death by Diving

[MXGratefulDiver]

we shouldn't give divers additional tools....until they're ready for it.

I'm drifting towards just playing devil's advocate here, for the sake of a thought provoking debate, but... I find my student OW's RMV/SAC is so variable that planning dive time through gas consumption expectations is realistically just a shot in the dark...

I see dive training as a progression that starts at the conceptual level. Using gas management as an example, what I want them to take away from OW is that gas management is an important aspect of dive planning, that it is important to monitor your gas throughout the dive, and that it is important to know when to turn around and begin your ascent.

Whatever your gas consumption rate may be, coming up with some reasonable numbers to keep in your head for beginning your ascent isn't rocket surgery. Everybody's consumption rate is variable to one degree or another, but that shouldn't prevent you from thinking about how much gas you need to surface safely.

FWIW - I have had people in my gas management seminars who hadn't even begun their OW class yet, and guess what ... they got it. It ain't hard to grasp concepts. The arithmetic may take longer, but at the OW level the important thing is to get them thinking about why it matters.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[SNorman]

With all the arguments running around, I think people have lost sight of what PADI actually teaches. After OW they say don't go down past 60' depth. A deep insight of gas management and predive planning is not really needed for dives to this depth. The restrictions directly indicate how much you've learned from the class, IMO.

When I passed the MSF course (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) and got my MC license endorsement the instructor made it very, very clear to the class that it wasn't necessarily time to go jump on the freeway, that the license was a license to learn.

Scuba isn't the only potentially dangerous sport. With most of them, requiring extensive training and certification processes would drastically reduce the amount of people participating. This means less shops selling equipment, less product development, higher prices, and less people enjoying the sport.

 

[ScubaSteve]

A deep insight of gas management and predive planning is not really needed for dives to this depth.

Deep insight? I agree. However, someone can go OOA in 59' as easily as 61'. Accidents requiring extra air happen at all depths. Basic understanding should be the very minimum of what is taught out of OW but I for one support a more in depth knowledge out of the gate. I would have loved to have an extra day added and dedicated to air consumption/understanding/planning to my OW course.

 

[SNorman]

Deep insight? I agree. However, someone can go OOA in 59' as easily as 61'. Accidents requiring extra air happen at all depths. Basic understanding should be the very minimum of what is taught out of OW but I for one support a more in depth knowledge out of the gate. I would have loved to have an extra day added and dedicated to air consumption/understanding/planning to my OW course.

I agree with that, the reality is at 60 feet around 700-800 psi is enough to get two people to the surface *with* a safety stop. A student knowing nothing more than trying to be at the surface with 500 psi plus accounting for a few hundred for the ascent should be OK. I'm not saying that's a great way to teach that, but really if you don't have enough gas for an OOA situation at 60' you probably didn't listen in class, no matter whose class it was.

 

[Matt S.]

Call me a crank if you wish, but I think gas management material like that taught by Bob should be a mandatory part of any OW course. Anyone who can't hack it shouldn't be diving.

 

[tkdgodess]

I teach the basics of dive planning, more than "surface with 500 psi". Last Saturday if I would have started the ascent from 53' at 700 psi for one of my OW student divers we would have ran out of air. Dive planning is very important, it's not a violation of standards to teach this planning, it's just not required to pass the course. Still doesn't mean I can't teach it, just means I can't withhold certification. It is easy and most can hack it, even 12 year olds.....

 

[kanonfodr]

When I passed the MSF course (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) and got my MC license endorsement the instructor made it very, very clear to the class that it wasn't necessarily time to go jump on the freeway, that the license was a license to learn.

And yet there are riders going down the road after their BRC wearing a t-shirt/shorts, flip-flops, and sunglasses. Only. I guess it's people thinking "I'm trained. I can ride. What do I need a helmet for, I'll never have an accident." Same mentality comes out of a lot of OW students, they haven't been told that they still "suck" (sorry to sound mean, but we all did coming out of OW). So they go out and push limits and inevitably end up hurt or killed, like that guy in Vortex.

Does anyone know a way to scare people un-stupid?

Peace,
Greg

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Does anyone know a way to scare people un-stupid?

... quit telling them that diving is safer than bowling. Sure, maybe the accident rates are comparable ... but there's a big difference between spraining your thumb and drowning ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[SNorman]

And yet there are riders going down the road after their BRC wearing a t-shirt/shorts, flip-flops, and sunglasses. Only. I guess it's people thinking "I'm trained. I can ride. What do I need a helmet for, I'll never have an accident." Same mentality comes out of a lot of OW students, they haven't been told that they still "suck" (sorry to sound mean, but we all did coming out of OW). So they go out and push limits and inevitably end up hurt or killed, like that guy in Vortex.

Does anyone know a way to scare people un-stupid?

Peace,
Greg

Exactly. I know guys who refuse to wear a helmet or gear (no choice in this state but back in MT more riders went without helmets than with). I work with a guy who refuses to wear a seatbelt. I've talked to him about it numerous times and showed him videos of unrestrained dummies in a car crash and he doesn't care. I think these are the types of people who learn just enough to pass the OW test and then do their own thing.

 

[cbm32]

After reading this thread as well as several others on this board I began to wonder if diving was worth the risk, even though I love it. So I did a fast google search.

It seems that the stats available are pretty well in agreement that scuba diving deaths occur at about the rate of 1 in 200,000 dives.

After some more searching it became apparent that cardiac incident accounts for 26% of all dive accidents.

I certainly am not trying to minimize the risks in diving because we all know that Murphy's law is alive and well. However, after doing this (admittedly brief) research I am back to where I was before finding this board (LOL). That being, I am fairly confident that if I do all I can to monitor the health of my heart and circulatory system, continue diving within my training limits and continue getting additional training, I can probably survive diving for at least a few more trips

Seriously, I am glad I found this board and feel I have profited and will continue to profit from the issues raised and the thought these issues prompt me to put into my safety. It is certainly worth taking the time to wade through some of the egos and mudslinging that one must to gather the knowledge