Death by Diving

[AfterDark]

Very interesting thread. Though I don't agree 100% with Thal he does make very good points. I also make a point of diving with new divers as a way of giving back promoting the sport and making sure there are people I know that I feel comfortable diving with! The lack of what I consider basic knowledge is worrysome to me.
Seems like every time I try to explain something to one of these new divers I have to explain something else 1st so'll they'll understand what the heck I'm talking about in the 1st place! Not that I mind I'm just surprised by what certified divers don't know.

Seems to me the diving industry is trying to walk a very fine line. On one side of the line is quality training on the other side is a desire to certify people to keep the business going. The quailty of training accepted by some? most? all? of the agencies appears to have taken a backseat.

IMO the oppotunity for someone to be able to go on vaction, take a 4 day course and be called certified is chilling and not good for the sport in the long run.

 

[DevonDiver]

From the conclusion of the BSAC Annual Report 2009....

I feel this is the 'core truth'. Most incidents are entirely avoidable if basic safe diving practices were followed. Every agency produces some version of a 'safe diving practices' document and all of these are fundamentally the same, regardless of agency.

I've seen threads here in SB that lambast agencies for not providing this skill, or that procedure. There isn't enough rescue training. That drill isn't taught correctly. There isn't enough 'gas management' There isn't enough dive planning.

People don't die because of those things. At worst, they are contributing factors. However, the community won't decrease death rates by focusing on the contributing factors. It is the cause that matters.

Gas planning is nice. It's good to have a robust plan before you get in the water. However, a bad plan... or a lack of plan... don't kill people. Running out of air kills people. The immediate solution is not complex pre-dive planning. The solution is SPG awareness and good buddy skills.

We shouldn't be talking about adding more elements to core scuba training courses. We should be concentrating on making sure that the critical skills already present in entry-level training are properly taught, retained and utilised by students.

Just my 2 cents....

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal, I really believe that, when it comes right down to it, you and I are far more in agreement than otherwise.

I know that to be true.

But I also believe that a) not everybody has any interest in better education and b) education can only do so much to shape behavior.

I perhaps give people more credit than you do.

When Peter flew, we got the NTSB reporter. Now, flying light aircraft IS heavily regulated, and the class you have to pass to do it is long and extensive, and I think there are far fewer really bad flying instructors out there than there are really bad diving instructors. But every issue reported a fatality due to running out of gas, or flying VFR into IFR conditions. Both of those things are avoidable. We were ALL taught checklists and walkarounds and how to check weather (I took flying lessons years ago, and I remember those things). But once people are finished with their classes, they do as they please, and what they please depends on their personality. Are they careful? Are they careLESS? Are they daredevils? Is their behavior driven by something other than what they were taught? (In the flying example, the desire to get home despite the weather; in the diving example, perhaps the desire to make a dive they've paid a lot of money for, despite the fact that conditions are not ideal for diving.)

I used to fly too: commercial, muti-engine, IFR, seaplane, high performance, complex, tailwheel, and I know that there are far fewer crappy flight instructors than there are crappy diving instructors, but the the investment to become a flight instructor is much greater as is the time in the industry.

The fact that most rebreather deaths are due to human error should be a cautionary example . . . humans are intrinsically fallible, and no amount of training or education is going to change that basic fact. A system like the one I dive in is designed to minimize the component of human error, by standardizing as much as possible, and incorporating many group checks. Yet I have made errors that could have caused safety problems, and I try to be very careful. The person who has no particular motivation to be careful will make more.

As is the system that I subscribe to. Less restrictive in terms of specific pieces of gear, but more restrictive, perhaps, in terms of the performance of skills.

 

[lamont]

Gas planning is nice. It's good to have a robust plan before you get in the water. However, a bad plan... or a lack of plan... don't kill people. Running out of air kills people. The immediate solution is not complex pre-dive planning. The solution is SPG awareness and good buddy skills.

Given the number of people who post near-misses which involve Al80s at 100+ feet with some completely insufficient amount of gas like 600 psi, I'd say that diver need to *both* be aware of their current gas, and to know what the SPG is really telling them.

And up here we had a diver who died after correctly realizing that she was low on gas, and ascending with her buddy. The accident turned fatal when she ran completely out of gas at 10-20 feet and they failed to complete a OOA, the diver that was out of gas then held her breath as she shot to the surface and died of CAGE.

A lot of problems there, and you can't focus on any one of them, but that cuts both ways... Yes, basic things like practicing emergency skills would have helped, or just remembering to exhale before heading the surface. But the whole incident could have been also prevented by just leaving the bottom sooner and not running OOA at all.

I also don't understand the "complex" gas planning objection. Is "my rock bottom pressure is 1300 psi at 100 feet" really all that complicated? Why does it need to be so burdensome to assign depth, time and gas limits to the dive? It should only take about 15 seconds to go over it at the surface.

 

[DevonDiver]

A lot of problems there, and you can't focus on any one of them, but that cuts both ways... Yes, basic things like practicing emergency skills would have helped, or just remembering to exhale before heading the surface. But the whole incident could have been also prevented by just leaving the bottom sooner and not running OOA at all.

Agreed 100%. Everything you mentioned should be covered within entry-level training. Eliminate failures in those 'core' diving practices and you will eliminate most accidents.

Evey agency provides students with the minimum 'tools' for safe recreational diving. It's when divers neglect to utilise those tools that preventable accidents happen.

IMHO, the solution to preventing those accidents is not to give the divers more tools. It is too address the reasons why those divers fail to utilise the tools they already possess.

I also don't understand the "complex" gas planning objection. Is "my rock bottom pressure is 1300 psi at 100 feet" really all that complicated? Why does it need to be so burdensome to assign depth, time and gas limits to the dive? It should only take about 15 seconds to go over it at the surface.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. It wasn't an objection. I was just expressing that I felt there were more immediate issues to be dealt with, regards diver training and accident prevention, and it was better to address those as a priority, before adding more steps and processes.

 

[DCBC]

As far as decreasing diver fatalaties are concerned, I believe that diver training should be of sufficient duration and intensity for the diver to:

1/ Demonstrate a reasonable degree of fitness (suitable to the diving environment).
2/ Provide the diver with a reasonable amount of knowledge and skill-sets required to dive independently (buoyancy, buddy skills, dive planning, gas consumption, ample rescue and self-rescue skills, etc.)
3/ Demonstrate confidence, knowledge and all the skills required to dive safety and independently.

Any diver training course is insufficient (imo) if these points are not adequately addressed. It's necessary to alot the requisite time that's required, rather than to conform to a timeline that will ensure profit, but fail to achieve the goal.

Although a percentage of properly trained divers will choose not to employ these methods, if they are not taught these skills, a higher number will not conform out of ignorance. I also believe that generally a diver's skill and safety is directly porportional to the amount and type of training they undertake, as well as the depth of their experience.

Although poor judgement can occur with anyone, the better prepared a diver is, the less likely they will be involved in a tragic accident. There are those that increase their training and also increase their risk (such as cave divers). I don't think that such increased risk is foolish, but it can be without the proper training, the rest is left to the divers judgement.

 

[Kingpatzer]

to really teach all of these, though, you need more ongoing mentoring than you get out of the typical recreational OW courses.

That was something my instructor emphasized to me (and which comes through in most all of my shop's instructors). I was around 50 dives before I didn't go diving with someone far more experienced than myself (or repeat a very easy dive I'd done a few times already with someone much more experienced than myself).

I am certain that experience refined my skills to a degree that would not have happened without it.

 

[danvolker]

That was something my instructor emphasized to me (and which comes through in most all of my shop's instructors). I was around 50 dives before I didn't go diving with someone far more experienced than myself (or repeat a very easy dive I'd done a few times already with someone much more experienced than myself).

I am certain that experience refined my skills to a degree that would not have happened without it.

I totally agree with the need for mentoring....not just for better skills, better practices, etc., but also for the added fun from each of us being in a larger direct social network.
As it happens, I was just talking with a GUE friend of mine, Errol Kalayci, about creating DIR Vacation dive trips in South Florida. This would be the oppsite of the Nazi stuff people sometimes complain about on this board,...... as when a group like this was on a boat with Errol, or me, or one of the other people who would ideally be included on each DIR dive, the emphasis would be on showing all the whys and hows, in a very social and entertaining format, a vacation format.
We would expect this would be fun for the non-DIR people in the boat trip, as they could have something of an entertainment experience on a trip like this, as well as seeing first hand some dir ideas they might decide to use, even if for many of the ideas they don't care to utilize them.
We will be picking dive sites for this, and optimal dive boats, hotels to work with, and even apres-diving options to give this a complete dive vacation enjoyment potential.

Moreover, this can help the mentoring, as the more good divers can be socialized with newer divers, and dive together with them, the better.

Scubaboard divers, even the very NON-Dir members who are long time divers with beneficial experience, may like the idea of diving with other scubaboard members that are new to diving, and help with the mentoring ....and may enjoy getting on these trips as well.

I can say almost categorically, that in person on a diveboat, there has never been a bad or uncomfortable experience, for any non-dir group or individual, that has been with any of us ( the DIR group that I know in S Fl) on a dive trip. This would have to remain mandatory--the whole thing has to stay fun, and if a DIR diver was into posturing and making others feel "smaller", they would NEVER be allowed to be part of our Vacation concept in S Fl.....I mention this only because I know this would be the largest fear some divers on scubaboard would have--who wants to be postured and dictated to....and I know from the way we did our DIR Demos back in the early days, this is the opposite of the way people would feel.
Also, the DIR Vacation is really for a DIR diver( or wanna be DIRish diver) , but will also be something fun for any diver ..and will include what we consider the coolest dive sites in Palm Beach county , as well as some of the cool wrecks of Broward.



We should have this concept ready to go in about 2 weeks or less, and I will post on it as soon as it is ready.

Regards,
Dan V

 

[EastTNDiver]

Agreed 100%. Everything you mentioned should be covered within entry-level training. Eliminate failures in those 'core' diving practices and you will eliminate most accidents.

Evey agency provides students with the minimum 'tools' for safe recreational diving. It's when divers neglect to utilise those tools that preventable accidents happen.

IMHO, the solution to preventing those accidents is not to give the divers more tools. It is too address the reasons why those divers fail to utilise the tools they already possess.



Sorry, I wasn't clear. It wasn't an objection. I was just expressing that I felt there were more immediate issues to be dealt with, regards diver training and accident prevention, and it was better to address those as a priority, before adding more steps and processes.

The statement I bolded above is perhaps the best statement I've read in this thread. If your rig is complete for the type of diving you're doing, you have ALL the "tools" needed for that dive. Aside from gear failure, most other causes are due to under utilizing the remaining "tool" between the shoulders. I have never even come close to an OOA scenario since originally certifying in 1984, and I attribute that to properly utilizing the tools at my disposal, and not pushing beyond my training. It is almost beyond my comprehension how anyone can suffer an OOA scenario outside of castostrophic gear failure.

 

[Cave Diver]

John, fixing everyone is not, as I said, my problem. But there are good methodologies out there, that if they were more widely adopted, might go a long way.

Ahh... but there is the rub! According to you, your program has a perfect record, and anyone training under the program would therefore be safe. So the problem is fixable. Except that training everyone is not your problem.

So, that goes back to the original statement. There will always be that small subset...

I understand what your saying. I applaud your thoroughness. And my statement is not throwing my hands up in the air in defeat, rather it is acknowledging that sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

I know an instructor. He has a strong academic background. Worked closely on university, government and scientific endeavors. He does technical diving and exploration. He teaches those as well and is an absolutely amazing storehouse of facts and information and his classes are very thorough.

Several years back he taught a bright young man an advanced class. This person already had some advanced technical training and wanted more. Whether on purpose, or by accident, he sought out this instructor, who is regarded to be among the best by myself and several people I know and whose opinion I respect.

If my class is any indication, the instructor stressed safety, protocol and procedures. If I can believe a long time friend of mine and a diver of 30 years who took the class with this person and who is also a course director for another agency, the class was very thorough.

In spite of all that training, how thorough the class was, or what he was told by other people, that young man died several years later on what should have been a fairly routine dive. Because at the worst, he willingly, knowingly ignored a glaring safety issue, or at at best was careless and overlooked it.

Other people have said this diver pushed too far, too fast. Some have said, right here on this board that he developed and attitude that wasn't safe. That rules didn't apply to him. No matter how good your training is, no matter how good your instructor is, as long as people have free will, there will always be that small subset of people...