Do we need instructors?

[DCBC]

DCBC,

Let's face it. We're seeing the same wornout discussions over and over again on Scubaboard. Sweeping generalizations: armchair dive gurus, PADI is Satan, Instructors are a bunch of junk, I only have 40 dives but I know it all, in the old days eveything was better now it's load of baloney, please buy this piece of equipment because I use it, so it's the very best in the world, etc, etc... I could go on for ages.

Like I said, "Perhaps you're seeing something in these posts that I'm not seeing Leapfrog. I don't think that anyone has said that diver education through mentorship is preferable to Instructor led education in all circumstances."

You don't have to accept the statement; you can ignore it if you like. It wont however change the validity of the statement.

I'm not an armchair dive guru (or any type of guru for that matter). My opinion on PADI was developed over 17 years (as a member of the organization) and the owner of a PADI Training Facility. Since then (another 20 years) I have remained active in diver education and have seen nothing to cause me to change my opinion of the PADI organization. Removing BB is another recent example. Please note, I'm talking about the organization and not its Instructors. They are two separate things.

In the old days, diving training was better. Divers and Instructors were better trained. This is not only my opinion, read the opinion of others. It's a fact; just compare the standards. Don't be ticked-off about it, because the facts will not change, regardless if we both try to ignore them.

As a diving professional, we need to keep an open mind. We should be trying to improve things. Believe me when I say that I wish I could produce a safe diver in half the time, but I can't. If you can, why not teach to the minimums?

This has resulted in a great personal cost to me, as I refused to lower the necessary standards and I was financially eaten alive by other competing LDSs, which caused me to close my shop in-favor of starting a registered trade school for diver education. This was an area where the additional training time benefited me (instead of staying the course and most probably going bankrupt; trying to keep-up with the diver mills). My boat charter company in Vancouver saw the results of their work; diver training was incomplete and I took it on myself to correct it where I could.

On the subject of this particular thread, as you read through it, the growing argument in favor of mentorship is based on the tenet that the level of instruction is too low.

When this comes from people like yourself or Thal, it's a considered opinion that I can either agree or disagree with.

It's also an argument for improving the level of instruction, not for doing away with instructors.

We talk far too much about the "mill" instructors who at the end of the day are young people and aren't going to be working as instructors for more than three years anyway.

I have still yet to see a thread supporting those of us who work almost 7 days a week, work long hours, are underpaid, are criticised for being members of a world recognised instructors' organisation and are used as a punching ball on Scubaboard.

... It is very worrying that senior, experienced, dive instructors are jumping on a bandwagon saying that most instructors are useless.

** No one has said that mentorship of a non-qualified diver is preferable to instruction by a certified Instructor (regardless of Instructor affiliation) in all circumstances.

** No one is suggesting to get rid of diving Instructors (I hope not anyway).

** No one is demeaning full-time SCUBA Instructors.

** You are free to start a thread that says PADI's the greatest; I suspect that I might even have something to say on the thread as well (although you may not like what I might say). Any comments I could make however would not be against any PADI member! As a long-time member and Emeritus PADI Instructor, I consider myself to have an interest in that organization and would consider membership again if things were changed.

It's also even more worrying that when challenged, they hit the ball out of the stadium by saying "actually, its not the instructors' fault, it's the agency."

In fact the word agency is also beginning to irritate me, because I belong to an Association, not an agency.

It's this frequent use of euphemisms to belittle and undignify the profession that riles me.

One acceptable definition of an agency is an organization that serves other businesses. PADI has developed partnerships with dive shops worldwide to promote its agenda. PADI is an agency.

PADI's vision (set down by Cronin and Morton) has changed over the years. It ceased being an association of Instructors when its Instructor members stopped controlling its direction and it became a for-profit organization owned by specific shareholders (like any business). It is for the reason that the Instructor members cannot control the agencies direction, that they are not responsible for what it has turned into.

There are interesting things happening in the world of dive instruction. GUE, UTD, RAID.... I still know little about them, but from what I have read so far, it looks like a step in the right direction. What we need to do now is support formal training, demand a higher level of instructor candidate, explain to the entry level diver how and where to find the best level of instruction and explain to them WHY. For the record, some of those instructors are also members of my Association and they do a great job helping people to conquer their fears and live their dreams.

The evidence supports the importance of professional diving instructors as the way "the world learns to dive". [Last year about 900,000 newly certified divers.]

Yes, there is a movement (as shown within some of the organizations you've mentioned) to get diver training back on-track. I agree that we have to support a higher level of Instructor and diver education. Again no one is saying anything against a PADI member. It is the organization's direction that I take exception to. Resiting the PADI slogan will not change PADI standards.

 

[Web Monkey]

What if the Instructor Trainer doesn't have any need to hire an Instructor? If your answer is, "Then I guess there isn't a need for an Instructor candidate", then what about a person who wants to become an Instructor and then work somewhere other than where they currently live?

From my "ideal" perspective, that would fall into the "sucks to be them" category. It's worked nicely for hundreds (thousands?) of years, where apprentices were required to work for masters before being allowed to go out on their own. This is why plumbers make good money and are generally competent (at least where I live)

Once the "apprenticeship" is over, they can go wherever they want.

Or wants to be an Independent Instructor?

Same thing. Train, get the OWI cert, work for a year, then go wherever you want.

I think I get your point-a person is less likely to grant someone an Instructor card if that person will then directly work for them for awhile, representing their business, but I don't feel it's practical.

I beleive it would cut way down on the number of instructors and dramatically improve the quality of instruction, as well as improve the quality of classes in general, since having a short supply of instructors means that the instructors can refuse poor pay, working conditions and rushed schedules.

However I also beleive that the chances of this happening are about the same as Elvis and Bigfoot stopping over for dinner.

Maybe a similar step would be better, but this actual idea I don't think will work.

Yep. It will never happen. The SCUBA Machine's inertia is too strong.

Terry

 

[I Dive]

From my "ideal" perspective, that would fall into the "sucks to be them" category. It's worked nicely for hundreds (thousands?) of years, where apprentices were required to work for masters before being allowed to go out on their own. This is why plumbers make good money and are generally competent (at least where I live)

What about the person who doesn't live anywhere near an IT? It just sucks to be them, because there happens to be no practicing IT anywhere near them? They should have to pack up their lives not only to learn from an IT but also do a year apprenticeship wherever that person lives? You can't compare SCUBA to Plumbing. Plumbers are located everywhere, IT's are not, unless you propose a dramatic increase in the number of IT's, which I don't think you do as it would be contrary to your overall goal.

 

[DCBC]

From my "ideal" perspective, that would fall into the "sucks to be them" category. It's worked nicely for hundreds (thousands?) of years, where apprentices were required to work for masters before being allowed to go out on their own. This is why plumbers make good money and are generally competent (at least where I live)

However I also beleive that the chances of this happening are about the same as Elvis and Bigfoot stopping over for dinner.

I have run several ITC's and have done exactly what you have suggested. I've certified Instructors through the ITC, offered them jobs and mentored them over a year period (some longer). The abilities of the Instructors improve quickly in such a setting. I'm not sure why, perhaps it's less competitive and they have someone who they can go to for advise.

 

[leapfrog]

DCBC.

It's not about how things used to be. It's not about what should have been done. It's about what are we going to do now?

You are free to start a thread that says PADI's the greatest; I suspect that I might even have something to say on the thread as well (although you may not like what I might say). Any comments I could make however would not be against any PADI member! As a long-time member and Emeritus PADI Instructor, I consider myself to have an interest in that organization and would consider membership again if things were changed.

Actually I did start a thread on this topic on the I2I forum and got no reponse about any association being BETTER than PADI. So I'll paste my OP again here and now take it onto a free for all forum.



Recreational agency standards: Ranking and why?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are hundreds (thousands?) of posts about the low standards of "certain recreational certification agencies" primarily related to the Open Water Diver course and its equivalents, suggesting that the instructors of those agencies don't require mastery of a full skill set so that an OWD is a competent diver and can dive with a buddy (no instructor, no guide) to 18 meter/60 ft maz depth.

The criticism may be directed also at other certification levels, AOW, Rescue, MSD, DM.

If we turn this around, the question is which are the agencies with the highest standards and based on what criteria can that claim be made?

Can you rank agencies from highest to lowest? Does that mean that instructors of what you may consider to be the lower standard agencies can't turn out properly qualified divers? Is an instructor of one of those agencies necessarily a bad instructor?

The question is directed to diving that is done to a maximum of 42 meters in a non overhead environment, so you can include the "new agencies" within the constraints of their non technical courses.

 

[DCBC]

Perhaps you can create another thread so this one's not hijacked completely (I'm guilty as charged). I'm quite happy to discuss this on the Instructor thread if you prefer.

 

[Thalassamania]

Yes, I suppose I was thinking about an accident that occurred during the training process. No card has been given, in-fact the mentor has put him/herself in a position of responsibility which may carry legal responsibility. The mentor/Instructor has (whether s/he realizes it or not) a standard of care based upon reasonableness (what should a reasonable and prudent person who instructs SCUBA diving do)? That's the issue here. A person who may not know the answer to these questions who has put themselves in such a position, takes on the responsibility of teaching the diver in a safe manner. It is for this reason why we carry liability insurance.

If you want to be technical about it a mentor will be held, in court, to a rather less stringent standard than a certified instructor.

...

On the subject of this particular thread, as you read through it, the growing argument in favor of mentorship is based on the tenet that the level of instruction is too low.

I fear that I was the one who started that particular line.

When this comes from people like yourself or Thal, it's a considered opinion that I can either agree or disagree with.

It's also an argument for improving the level of instruction, not for doing away with instructors.

We talk far too much about the "mill" instructors who at the end of the day are young people and aren't going to be working as instructors for more than three years anyway.

Yes, it is a considered opinion, based on what I see today, it some ways it is a "modest proposal" along the line of Swift's, not really intended to be implemented across the board and bring about the end to the full time diving instructor, but more intended to illustrate the problem that exists.

I have still yet to see a thread supporting those of us who work almost 7 days a week, work long hours, are underpaid, are criticised for being members of a world recognised instructors' organisation and are used as a punching ball on Scubaboard.

I guess I don't really see where such a thread is needed, you have a "world recognized" instructor servicing group spending lots of money singing y'all's praises. All I've got is this little soapbox here, it the words that I write in this tiny corner of existence say truth to power and cause any single person to question the mighty's validity, well then I guess the mighty must have feet of clay and be standing in quicksand.

So I have decided to take a stand.

I am not going to put up with people who are rude or who on a thread called "Are Instructors Necessary?" attack me for speaking as an instructor, not as "just a diver".

I'm not going to put up with people who, when they don't like my answers, tell me to get off my "self important soapbox".

Your soapbox is a bit, as I think I just pointed out, a bit redundant ... but you are, of course, welcome to it.

It is very worrying that senior, experienced, dive instructors are jumping on a bandwagon saying that most instructors are useless.

I think that's a fair evaluation and you are not overstating the case to say that it is very worrying situation. Unfortunately, I see not solution to the problem and all I can do is continue to refine my arguments and point out that the Emperor is buck nek'd.

It's also even more worrying that when challenged, they hit the ball out of the stadium by saying "actually, its not the instructors' fault, it's the agency."

When you're looking for a pollution source it's often a good idea to look upstream.

In fact the word agency is also beginning to irritate me, because I belong to an Association, not an agency.

While you might like to call PADI an "association" they are no such thing, and you are not a "member." Those are euphemisms that attempt to paint PADI in a light that they do no deserve. PADI is a business; you are a client, or customer (if you prefer) of that business, all else is smoke and mirrors.

It's this frequent use of euphemisms to belittle and undignify the profession that riles me.

It is not my intent to belittle or undignity you, please understand that, but to attempt to glorify diving instruction as a "profession," with all the baggage that usually goes with that word, strikes me as attempting to gild the lilly a bit.

There are interesting things happening in the world of dive instruction. GUE, UTD, RAID.... I still know little about them, but from what I have read so far, it looks like a step in the right direction. What we need to do now is support formal training, demand a higher level of instructor candidate, explain to the entry level diver how and where to find the best level of instruction and explain to them WHY. For the record, some of those instructors are also members of my Association and they do a great job helping people to conquer their fears and live their dreams.

The evidence supports the importance of professional diving instructors as the way "the world learns to dive". [Last year about 900,000 newly certified divers.]

I prefer, "would you trust this person to teach your loved ones to dive?" as a motto.

I stand with DCBC in reiterating that:

1. I have not said that mentorship of a non-qualified diver is preferable to instruction by a certified Instructor (regardless of Instructor affiliation) in all circumstances.
2. I do not suggest getting rid of diving Instructors.
3. I have no intent to demean individuals who work as full-time SCUBA Instructors, however, at the same time I do not buy into the inflated importance that many of the agencies are shilling for.
4. I am not saying anything against being a PADI clients per se, beyond calling on PADI clients to recognize the support they give that organization is neither in the short term best interests of their student nor in the long term best interests of the recreational diving industry. Resiting the PADI slogan will not change PADI standards, but withholding your dollars will.

 

[leapfrog]

Thal, I love you.

 

[Thalassamania]

Well Brother Leapfrog, if you want to come to Hawaii (even though it's depressed as hell here too) just let me know, I have to warn you though ... we eat organic food and grow most it ourselves.

 

[I Dive]

Thal, I love you.

Well Brother Leapfrog, if you want to come to Hawaii (even though it's depressed as hell here too) just let me know, I have to warn you though ... we eat organic food and grow most it ourselves.

Would you two please get a room?