Why did Horse Collar BC's fade away?

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I think we have reached an irreconcilable impasse regarding opinion of the horse collar BC.:cuddles:

I think the Clackamas River looks like a really fun dive and as long as it is warm enough that I would not need to bulk up with neoprene I would enjoy (not having to) use of my horse collar SeaTec. Let's explore that Clackamas River, you are shallow so there is little or no suit compression, it appears to be fairly warm water so you do not use a lot of suit, there is no long surface swim involved to get to the dive site, there is no loitering on the surface awaiting pick up, there is no boat traffic that might suggest enough air in the BC to get the head up to swivel. That is why extrapolating one set of experiences to another's is not often useful.

I prefer, generally, nothing up front, a clean office and this free dive wetsuit is super flexible and unconstricting (my wife got me two (!) of them on Amazon $56 and $75, each deal of the day!). It is like diving naked but warmer o_O. And you cannot see me, how cool is that :cool:



The Dacor my new wife is using was one of my favorite horse collars. It has the lift BC bladder under the tummy and it had a large neck opening, a huge pocket and no air was ever introduced into the upper bladder unless you were wanting a life jacket instead of a BC :coffee:. Alas, it finally succumbed to age and fell apart. I gave it an honorable burial at sea, RIP my Dacor horse collar BC friend. You were good in your day and I loved using you.
Terry,

The Clackamas River can be fun, but last Monday (Memorial Day) wasn’t; the water was high, and the current swift. My dive site starts above High Rocks, and goes down through the High Rocks area to another smaller park. But the initial entry has a current hitting the rocks and traveling upstream, then circling back to run at 90 degrees to the rapids it flows into (behind a small island). That island was almost submerged, and when I hit that rapids area, i was turned every way by loose for three round trips in the opposite circular current. Water temperature, by the way, was 56 degrees F, and I wore a full wetsuit, hood, booties (band new booties) and gloves. As I was being tossed around, my float’s line tangled with my GoPro on my helmet, and in the process flooded my mask. When I finally got out of the current and downstream, I had to surface and use my Para-Sea BCD to be inflated fully in order to untangle myself, get my helmet off, untangle it, and clear my mask (a Scubapro 3-window that I really like). I was very thankful that I had the Para-Sea BC on for that dive (my first this year). It performed very well indeed, for a prototype that is 40+ years old.

Now, I’d have to agree with you about the Scubapro Stabilizing Jacket, but there is also a back story to it. You see, Bill Herder of Deep Sea Bill’s in Newport, Oregon not only built a BCD into the back of his custom wetsuits, but he also built a neoprene inflatable vest. I demonstrated that neoprene vest at IQ7 (The Seventh International Conference on Underwater Education) held in California (I’ll have to look up where it was held). I was a speaker, and talked about buoyancy compensation. I also conducted a demonstration of some of my concepts, and also Bill Herder’s vest, in the pool at the hotel. It was about a year or two later that Scubapro came out with their Stabilizing Jacket, and Bill was mad. He maintained until his death that Scubapro had stolen his idea, and commercialized it. The jacket idea was Bill’s. And he never received any recognition or reward for it.

SeaRat
 
Allrighty then! In my early days of SCUBA diving, "Buoyancy Control" was a bag of lead weights tied to the anchor. You adjusted as needed when you got there. That was in about '67 or '68. I didn't have any certification but the local shops all thought I did. In 1970, I moved to Southern Germany and got officially certified there. There, I was part of a government sanctioned group that got called out to find lost boat motors, thrown away weapons, bodies, etc. We dove with cute little white singles, like pony bottles. Top of the line equipment for the time but still, "Buoyancy Control" was adjust the lead as needed.

Then I moved to North Florida and got involved talking diving with some nice men from the Hurlburt Special Operations Base. "So you think you can dive? Take our course"! So I did. That was the first time I saw an actual(Horse collar) Buoyancy Compensator. Wow! You can make yourself heavier so you can do some work on the bottom, then just inflate it some to make yourself neutral. I had to have one and I got one. I did some salvage recovery work in the local marinas on sunken boats after hurricanes and tornadoes and this thing was wonderful for that! Slim enough to get thru tight doorways that are upside down or sideways but can actually float me comfortably on the surface with all my gear still on. Best of all, precise enough to suspend me in a perfect hover above the silt in a marina.

Those nice men from Hurlburt Field (Mean, cruel, vicious, sadistic, heartless SOB's!) made sure I knew how to use mine and how to "get dressed". That's where the catch comes in. A Horse Collar Buoyancy Compensator requires more training than reading the instructions and trying it out in the motel pool. It actually requires training in how to put it on, how to use it and how not to use it. Between the tank harness, the weight belt and the HCBC, there's quite a few straps. Nothing connects to anything else except the Inflator hose and the straps have to be put on in the proper order. Get the sequence wrong and the mistake can kill you. Easily! First the HCBC. Once it's on and strapped on correctly, then the tank(s). Once they're good to go and all is comfortable, the weight belt goes on last.

Get it wrong in training and the nice Hurlburt Filed men screamed in your face. Get it wrong in open water and die. It wasn't that the Horse Collar Buoyancy Compensator was dangerous. It was not dangerous. It was very safe. It's head back flotation method made living a lot easier for myself and my partners on two occasions. The danger was the number of separate systems that had to be strapped on and the training that that required to get it right. The HCBC, the tank(s), the weight belt, the liner cutter, the BFK, the assorted hoses, etc. etc. etc. Hey, I understand! It's easier to train when all you have to say is put this on like a jacket. It's also a lot less liability for the trainers.

I worked as a Safety Diver in the early seventies for a local dive school. My job was to watch a rookie "get dressed" and correct mistakes. Then I had to take him/her down to sixty feet and watch while they dropped their regulator and did a free ascent. I had a nylon dog leash attached to them and I explained to them that if they stopped bubbling, I would punch them in the guts and fail them. Then I had to take the survivors down to a hundred foot plus for two dives, also with dog leashes. It was a NAUI course but it beats me if it was required or just something the school did. I got paid fifteen bucks per student, got free air and a free boat ride. It was scary sometimes though. "NO NO NO! You've got your weights under your tank and your BC on top of everything"!

The Horse Collar Buoyancy Compensator requires more training. That is a fact. Not just because of the extra straps and stages to getting dressed but also because it supports the majority of the weight above the center of gravity. They require extra training to get the right amount of weight for the dive so as to not require a friggin' pillow of air in your face. They also have a lot less pockets! I firmly believe that the real reason that the Horse Collar BC faded away is because of ease of use and minimal training required for the newer types. Put this on like a jacket versus first the BC, then the tanks, then the weights, etc. etc.

I understand. The more modern stuff is easier to train on and has more pockets. That caused the "Great HCBC Fade Away". The real reason the modern stuff works better, is because is because it's easier to train and that alone makes it easier to use. They're not really better, just simpler. But they do have more pockets!!!
 
By large steel tanks, you mean something other than the standard 71.2 steel tanks of yesteryear; you’re talking about the massive, high pressure steel tanks of today
Yes that is correct,
But even single 130cuft is fairly negative if you are going no exposure suit.
I dive twin 72s, even with a full 7mm, its quite negative, but that's including full manifold ss plate etc. Plus I am naturally negative.

But they do have more pockets!!!

I never found BCD pockets very useful in the water....
but it could be because of my long arms....
 
Yes that is correct,
But even single 130cuft is fairly negative if you are going no exposure suit.
I dive twin 72s, even with a full 7mm, its quite negative, but that's including full manifold ss plate etc. Plus I am naturally negative.



I never found BCD pockets very useful in the water....
but it could be because of my long arms....
Well, I have found my front pocket very useful. I know, Terry, you like thing open in front, but when I built the Para-Sea BC, I put a large pocket in the front. I have used it so many times I cannot tell you how many. It has housed fishing lures, hooks, weights, cell phones, a bracelet, ear rings, and last week's dive, a card for food (which I called in and the Oregon State representative resent to the owner)... As you can tell, I use it all the time. Here's one memorial occasion.


SeaRat
 
My current one is a Seaquest and it has a nice large pocket on the front. It has a step in parachute type harness but no attachment points for any gear! I'm planning on picking up an old unusable one to disassemble it so I can make a pattern to make my own. It WILL have bright colors, pockets in front and attachment points for gear!

Hey! Now there's a question to think about! Why have all of the bright colors of SCUBA faded away to the drab stuff that the manufacturers are selling nowadays? Nah. Just kidding. I know why. It's because when everybody started using those death traps called modern BCD's that will drown an unconscious diver, they didn't need to use bright colors to help quickly find him/her because they're already drowned! lol!
 
I've been thinking about this a lot recently and now i'm wondering if someone makes a lightweight, oral inflate PFD that replaces the padding on the BCD straps. I wouldn't want to use it as a BCD, but rather as a support on the surface for either long swims or when handling heavy things in and out of the water. Is this a thing currently on the marker or something I would have to make myself?
 
I've been thinking about this a lot recently and now i'm wondering if someone makes a lightweight, oral inflate PFD that replaces the padding on the BCD straps. I wouldn't want to use it as a BCD, but rather as a support on the surface for either long swims or when handling heavy things in and out of the water. Is this a thing currently on the marker or something I would have to make myself?
Suppose you could start configurating something along these lines:


But they get pricey quick.
 
Well, I have found my front pocket very useful.
SeaRat
That is the one item I miss from my days of diving a horse collar. My first (and only) horse collar was a US Divers BC2. Had a big front pocket, easy to open and dump stuff in.

Now a days, during the summer I have a side pocket on my BP harness and winter, my thigh pockets. But, just not the same!
 
First certified in 1973, in NJ- with horse collar and plastic back pack. Didn't dive too much, for a variety of reasons.
In 1983, I had the opportunity to try vacation/ warm water diving. I brought my gear (recently serviced). The dive shop rental gear, and the gear of all the other divers that day had BCs.
While I made a note to try a BC, I found it humorous when a couple of the other divers saw my horse collar, and asked "is that some new type of experimental gear ?”
 
I will only chime in to say my main reason to buy a Seaquest back mounted wing was getting rid of straps and harnesses!

We had to strap on a horse collar BCD with waist and crotch strap (God awful!), then a backpack with shoulder and waist straps, then a weight belt! Three harnesses in all and I was young and skinnier then.....We just wanted to dive (1969) so we put up with the discomfort and contortions required.

Going to my Seaquest "wing" and a weight belt was soooooo much more comfortable especially the front being clear for photography, etc. Much more streamlined swimming profile also if weighted properly and little to no air in the "wing".

Later I bought a SeaPro back mounted wing on a plastic backpack that had a stretchy mesh outer bag. It scrunched the barely inflated wing to a much narrower profile, like wearing nothing at all!

Now with weight integration on my Aqualung ZUMA lightweight back inflate BCD I wear one set of straps and am as streamlined as my idols, those Cousteau divers :)

Just one old guy's opinion :)

David Haas

PS - Here's photo of possibly the first back inflate BCD! Not sure what tire size this was from :) LOL.........

Back Mounted BCD.jpg
 

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