Why did Horse Collar BC's fade away?

[Eric Sedletzky]

Yeah yeah yeah ....but why is it better and "Because" isn't a legitimate answer!

So far, the only thing that I've read, is that they're easier to put on. And that right there is the primary reason that they took over in my honest and unprofessional opinion. Dive operators, gear rental, even retail stores all have one business expense in common: Liability insurance.

Put yourself into the shoes of a large dive tour/gear rental agency in a dive hotspot. How many times has he/she or their employees seen the kinds of mistakes that can easily kill one of their paying guests? "Hmmm. Does the weight belt go on top of or under the Horse Collar B/C vest? Or does this crotch strap for my Horse Collar B/C go around my tanks or under them?"

Hey, I get it. Liability. All of those little death causing mistakes are eliminated by "Here. Put this on like a jacket and buckle it in front". Much less liability! Then the assorted dive magazines got into the act because they want the sport to prosper and making it safer is one way to help that along. I get it. The jacket types or backwings are safer because they require less thought and training. But, are they better?

Horse collars getting replaced by jacket BC’s had nothing to do with liability insurance, it was for convenience.
Replacing a horse collar BC/backpack to an all-in-one unit of the BC part attached to the plate was a breakthrough in simplification to outfit divers, conduct classes, rent gear, etc.
If the jacket BC sucked that bad it wouldn’t have made it all the way up to this day. It still remains the most popular option for a BCD. Just look around any dive site or charter boat around the world and see what people are using. Over 90% of rigs will be jackets or back inflates.
BP/W are also gaining popularity but those are the exact opposite if a horse collar, all the lift is in the back.

 

[johndiver999]

@Waterwulf, there are tons of statistics about fatal diving accidents. I hav never heard about one when the diver dead because he has fallen unconscious and then could not breath anymore due to the BCD. This problem that you keep mention is really NOT a thing.

I am happy to change my mind if you find one accident where the horse collar BCD would have made a difference

I am sure there are many instances where a drowned scuba diver is found on the surface. I was involved in one incident myself, although somewhat indirectly... I was looking for him on the bottom and the boat found him dead on the surface. Who knows how many people would have survived, but I am sure it is some.

 

[DAJ]

If Horse Collars are so bad, why do Special Force all over the world use them? It's a simple question: Why are jacket types and wings better?

SF wears them because in their world, they are a life vest only. In our recreational/technical world, we use buoyancy compensators. In the SF configuration with modified rebreathers, they have no need for a BC as their shallow depths, additional equipment, and reason for diving are often much different than a civilian diver doing a routine dive. While civilian divers have taken the basic HC and modified it for their diving purposes (like adding power inflators), a HC is first and foremost a life vest. The BC adds creature comforts that make recreational diving easier through buoyancy control at various depths, various attachment points for whatever you might want to take diving, and it makes a stable platform for connecting the dive cylinder to the BC device with hose routing/placement much easier. Again, the average diver has no need for a HC as they are better equipped for routine diving with a BC or BP/W. Sure, folks still use them but they represent a significant minority compared to other modern options.

 

[Waterwulf]

SF wears them because in their world, they are a life vest only. In our recreational/technical world, we use buoyancy compensators. In the SF configuration with modified rebreathers, they have no need for a BC as their shallow depths, additional equipment, and reason for diving are often much different than a civilian diver doing a routine dive. While civilian divers have taken the basic HC and modified it for their diving purposes (like adding power inflators), a HC is first and foremost a life vest. The BC adds creature comforts that make recreational diving easier through buoyancy control at various depths, various attachment points for whatever you might want to take diving, and it makes a stable platform for connecting the dive cylinder to the BC device with hose routing/placement much easier. Again, the average diver has no need for a HC as they are better equipped for routine diving with a BC or BP/W. Sure, folks still use them but they represent a significant minority compared to other modern options.

Thank you!!! That pretty much covers my question! I'll continue to use my Horse Collar because I like it much better than a jacket type. I know that it won't ever try to drown me! Yeah, I wish I had more pockets and attachment points but I'll make do with what I have. It's what I trained on way back about 1970 or so and it works just fine for me. I don't think a newer model will do anything better for me.

BTW. SF persons do use their Horse Collars as BC's but are not nearly as dependant on them as sport divers because they spend way more time getting their weights correct and keep a record of them. In my NAUI class at Hurlburt Base in North Florida, our Instructors were all SF. A SEAL, A LRRP and two Air Force some kind of combat para-jumper medic. (PJ's?). They trained us like they'd been trained. We even had to go thru a Hell Day to graduate. We had to carry all of our gear to the top of the high dive (No easy task with twin 72's!), jump off and gear up on the bottom of the pool while the Instructors stole gear, turned off valves, yanked off masks and regulators, etc. The masks were blacked out so we were all blind. You were graded on how well you handled the various emergencies that they caused. It was good training but it wasn't fun!!

Thanks everybody else for the informative discussion. (Except for the one who thinks insults are an acceptable response to a question! Does your dive partner know about your views on wishing people to drown?? Sheesh!)

 

[ginti]

I am sure there are many instances where a drowned scuba diver is found on the surface. I was involved in one incident myself, although somewhat indirectly... I was looking for him on the bottom and the boat found him dead on the surface. Who knows how many people would have survived, but I am sure it is some.

One thing is if a diver is found dead on the surface after dying at depth - another is arriving alive at the surface and dying due to an ill-designed piece of equipment... I never heard of such a case. I am willing to change my mind if there are documented case about it. Also, if this is a problem of statistical bias, I bet some experts in the field would point it out - so, I will also change my mind if there is the voice of a recognized doctor or medicine specialist... Otherwise, without fact, we cannot really claim anything, wouldn't you agree?

 

[lexvil]

You’re welcome, oh wait am I the one .

for the record the old stuff works as well today as it did back in the day, Voit duck feet fins work as well now as they did 60 years ago but there are better options. Also for the record, in general “jacket” b/c’s suck and I would choose the horse collar over one anytime. The only time I have air in my b/c is the beginning of a dive. I apologize if I were a bit abrasive.

enjoy diving.

 

[johndiver999]

One thing is if a diver is found dead on the surface after dying at depth - another is arriving alive at the surface and dying due to an ill-designed piece of equipment... I never heard of such a case. I am willing to change my mind if there are documented case about it. Also, if this is a problem of statistical bias, I bet some experts in the field would point it out - so, I will also change my mind if there is the voice of a recognized doctor or medicine specialist... Otherwise, without fact, we cannot really claim anything, wouldn't you agree?

It is quite obvious that supporting an unconscious person in a face up position in the water is essential for their survival. Since the jacket or BP/w does no do that and the old vests do, I think this is a pretty clear potential advantage. I don't need a doctor to tell me that, not sure why you seem to want it?

Plus, your whole assumption is pretty ridiculous, you want documented cases (which I assume would be personal observations) of people watching an incapacitated diver drown on the surface in a jacket BC. Who is going to watch that and report back to us?

As for the OP, it sounds like he first tried using a jacket bc which had shoulder straps incorporated in to the design. This was a bad design, and was dropped pretty quickly. More modern jacket BC's are much more secure and comfortable than those old designs.

 

[rx7diver]

I'll continue to use my Horse Collar because I like it much better than a jacket type. ...

Something to consider: Will anyone diving with you (or near you) know how to handle your gear during an emergency? Does this matter to you?

A few years ago, I began diving a double-hose regulator (a U.S. Divers DAAM that had been upgraded with a 1st gen VDH Phoenix nozzel). Eventually, I added a second stage (a Scubapro Balanced Adjustable) to my DH reg. Even though I dive solo almost exclusively these days, I nevertheless decided that having a typical "safe second" available for anyone who is unfamiliar with buddy-breathing using a DH reg, is prudent.

rx7diver

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Thank you!!! That pretty much covers my question! I'll continue to use my Horse Collar because I like it much better than a jacket type. I know that it won't ever try to drown me! Yeah, I wish I had more pockets and attachment points but I'll make do with what I have. It's what I trained on way back about 1970 or so and it works just fine for me. I don't think a newer model will do anything better for me.

BTW. SF persons do use their Horse Collars as BC's but are not nearly as dependant on them as sport divers because they spend way more time getting their weights correct and keep a record of them. In my NAUI class at Hurlburt Base in North Florida, our Instructors were all SF. A SEAL, A LRRP and two Air Force some kind of combat para-jumper medic. (PJ's?). They trained us like they'd been trained. We even had to go thru a Hell Day to graduate. We had to carry all of our gear to the top of the high dive (No easy task with twin 72's!), jump off and gear up on the bottom of the pool while the Instructors stole gear, turned off valves, yanked off masks and regulators, etc. The masks were blacked out so we were all blind. You were graded on how well you handled the various emergencies that they caused. It was good training but it wasn't fun!!

Thanks everybody else for the informative discussion. (Except for the one who thinks insults are an acceptable response to a question! Does your dive partner know about your views on wishing people to drown?? Sheesh!)

If you’re that big of a badass why do you need any sort of BC at all?
Just dive like these guys, cold water in 7mm wetsuits, no BC backpacks only diving to 100’ chasing bugs and Halibut. Even the gals can do it!

Gallery of California Backpack Divers : 1999-2001

I doubt too many of them had to lug twin 72’s up a high dive and then jump off and put everything on while being harassed with a blacked out mask.

 

[rx7diver]

OP, did you see this thread (from last year): For Sale: Classic Seatec Military Horse-collar BCD.

Maybe @Trace Malinowski still has HC BC this available.

rx7diver