Why did Horse Collar BC's fade away?

[tkaelin]

From 1978. Loved going through gear catalogs way back when.

 

[Waterwulf]

@Waterwulf How were they for surface swims?

My diving tends to involve a lot of surface swimming and the idea of a surface only flotation aid that I can orally inflate before i get in the water and then dump before descending would be nice. I can envision something like this being built into the shoulder straps of a BP/W system, again, for surface use only.

In North Florida at the coast by Destin, is the Destin Pass. The next two passes are 50 miles away. All of the water for Choctawhatchee Bay goes thru that pass. There is/was? a massive rock jetty that sticks out on the West side several hundred feet offshore. The rip tides that run along the coast on the West side run for several miles. The direction was determined by the tide going in or out. We used to "ride the rips"there.

There would be ten or a dozen of us, all wearing and carrying our walking down the beach to see which way it was running. Ten we'd walk "upstream" for a mile or two and swim out a hundred yards or two to the rip tide. When you first hit it, it would try to yank your gear off because it was so strong. Then once you were moving at it's speed, it was like flying!

We also liked to go to the spring rivers, some of them just big creeks and drift dive down them. There's a LOT of current in those things. We also dove several caves...Vortex and Morrison's. Those are spring fed caves and have a lot of current in them too. Honestrly, I never heard anybody complain about the drag of our BC/s but we all had Horse Collars. I have very little experience with jacket types and none with wings but I think a jacket would haven been like an underwater sail! Fat with lots of drag! Much less fun!

 

[lexvil]

I will read they rest of the posts later but the horse collar faded away because better stuff came along, that’s pretty much all there is to it.

 

[Waterwulf]

I will read they rest of the posts later but the horse collar faded away because better stuff came along, that’s pretty much all there is to it.

Yeah yeah yeah ....but why is it better and "Because" isn't a legitimate answer!

So far, the only thing that I've read, is that they're easier to put on. And that right there is the primary reason that they took over in my honest and unprofessional opinion. Dive operators, gear rental, even retail stores all have one business expense in common: Liability insurance.

Put yourself into the shoes of a large dive tour/gear rental agency in a dive hotspot. How many times has he/she or their employees seen the kinds of mistakes that can easily kill one of their paying guests? "Hmmm. Does the weight belt go on top of or under the Horse Collar B/C vest? Or does this crotch strap for my Horse Collar B/C go around my tanks or under them?"

Hey, I get it. Liability. All of those little death causing mistakes are eliminated by "Here. Put this on like a jacket and buckle it in front". Much less liability! Then the assorted dive magazines got into the act because they want the sport to prosper and making it safer is one way to help that along. I get it. The jacket types or backwings are safer because they require less thought and training. But, are they better?

 

[lexvil]

Yeah yeah yeah ....but why is it better and "Because" isn't a legitimate answer!

So far, the only thing that I've read, is that they're easier to put on. And that right there is the primary reason that they took over in my honest and unprofessional opinion. Dive operators, gear rental, even retail stores all have one business expense in common: Liability insurance.

Put yourself into the shoes of a large dive tour/gear rental agency in a dive hotspot. How many times has he/she or their employees seen the kinds of mistakes that can easily kill one of their paying guests? "Hmmm. Does the weight belt go on top of or under the Horse Collar B/C vest? Or does this crotch strap for my Horse Collar B/C go around my tanks or under them?"

Hey, I get it. Liability. All of those little death causing mistakes are eliminated by "Here. Put this on like a jacket and buckle it in front". Much less liability! Then the assorted dive magazines got into the act because they want the sport to prosper and making it safer is one way to help that along. I get it. The jacket types or backwings are safer because they require less thought and training. But, are they better?

Oh please, it has nothing to do with liability or some vast conspiracy it about performance as a buoyancy compensator, have you ever tried riding on top of a beach ball in the pool?

as a life vest it may be better but if someone can figure out how to extricate them self from a back inflate system and ditch all of the weight and tank and using it as a life saving buoyancy tool they may be better off drowning.

if someone seriously expects to become an “unconscious diver” perhaps video games would be a better past time.

 

[Waterwulf]

Oh please, it has nothing to do with liability or some vast conspiracy it about performance as a buoyancy compensator, have you ever tried riding on top of a beach ball in the pool?

as a life vest it may be better but if someone can figure out how to extricate them self from a back inflate system and ditch all of the weight and tank and using it as a life saving buoyancy tool they may be better off drowning.

if someone seriously expects to become an “unconscious diver” perhaps video games would be a better past time.

If you have so much air in your BC, regardless of whether it's a Horse Collar or jacket type, etc. BCD that it's a beach ball, then you're obviously over weighted and should maybe ask somebody for help in getting it balanced right! Personally, I never had that problem.

"Better off drowning if they can figure out how to extricate themselves...." ? I'm not sure what that all means but it sound harsh! Sheesh! "It may be better if someone drowns"! Hmmmm! Does your dive partner know about these thoughts?

No, nobody ever expects to become an unconscious diver nor do they expect to have to deal with one. Nor do they expect to have a flat tire, get mugged, crash in an airplane, etc. etc. etc,. Stuff happens! Unexpected emergencies happen. Video games, huh? If someone seriously expects to never have an unexpected emergency, perhaps they should go back to video games because that person is living in a fantasy world!

 

[lexvil]

If you have so much air in your BC, regardless of whether it's a Horse Collar or jacket type, etc. BCD that it's a beach ball, then you're obviously over weighted and should maybe ask somebody for help in getting it balanced right! Personally, I never had that problem.

"Better off drowning if they can figure out how to extricate themselves...." ? I'm not sure what that all means but it sound harsh! Sheesh! "It may be better if someone drowns"! Hmmmm! Does your dive partner know about these thoughts?

No, nobody ever expects to become an unconscious diver nor do they expect to have to deal with one. Nor do they expect to have a flat tire, get mugged, crash in an airplane, etc. etc. etc,. Stuff happens! Unexpected emergencies happen. Video games, huh? If someone seriously expects to never have an unexpected emergency, perhaps they should go back to video games because that person is living in a fantasy world!

Sounds like your scared, best stay out of the water.

use whatever you like, just because you’re afraid of change doesn’t make 50 year old technology the best but if it the best for you go on and have a good time.

 

[Waterwulf]

Wow dude! Insults and ridicule! I thought this was a friendly family type board! Then again, it sounds like you're one of those people who substitute insults and ridicule in place of wit and intelligence!

Yes, I will use whatever i like and no, I'm not afraid of change. I just don't think that "new and improved" is always better. I wanted to have a friendly conversation about this kind versus that kind of BC, not get attacked because you are unable to say why this type is better!

You to can use whatever you want but why insult me because I asked questions? I'm asking why is the jacket type/back wing better than the old Horse Collar but so far, all I've gotten are:
*...The Horse Collar will flip you over.
*...Ever rode a beachball in the pool?
*...Some gibberish about better off drowning.

More pockets and attachment points is the only factual reason why they're better! If Horse Collars are so bad, why do Special Force all over the world use them? It's a simple question: Why are jacket types and wings better?

 

[lexvil]

Wow dude! Insults and ridicule! I thought this was a friendly family type board! Then again, it sounds like you're one of those people who substitute insults and ridicule in place of wit and intelligence!

Yes, I will use whatever i like and no, I'm not afraid of change. I just don't think that "new and improved" is always better. I wanted to have a friendly conversation about this kind versus that kind of BC, not get attacked because you are unable to say why this type is better!

You to can use whatever you want but why insult me because I asked questions? I'm asking why is the jacket type/back wing better than the old Horse Collar but so far, all I've gotten are:
*...The Horse Collar will flip you over.
*...Ever rode a beachball in the pool?
*...Some gibberish about better off drowning.

More pockets and attachment points is the only factual reason why they're better! If Horse Collars are so bad, why do Special Force all over the world use them? It's a simple question: Why are jacket types and wings better?

You asked a question and then just made statements, ultimately whatever works for you is fine, just because you can’t see why something is a better design doesn’t make it equivalent, new isn’t always better but better is better.

special forces use what is issued.

 

[ginti]

@Waterwulf, there are tons of statistics about fatal diving accidents. I hav never heard about one when the diver dead because he has fallen unconscious and then could not breath anymore due to the BCD. This problem that you keep mention is really NOT a thing.

I am happy to change my mind if you find one accident where the horse collar BCD would have made a difference