General advice to new scuba divers: do not waste your money!

[SlugLife]

Its not a matter of technical diving or not.
As I said before: almost the same configuration used for technical diving can be used for recreational one.
I understand the BP/W setup was born for technical diving, but it is not like that anymore.

Yes, much of technical-diving gear can be used for recreational diving. There are several problems though:

• Cost: Much of the gear may be more expensive. Plus, if someone dives 5 times per year, mostly in the Caribbean, what's the point of having a $1200 computer, $2000 regulators, and $3000 drysuit?
• Knowledge: A beginner diver doesn't know what they're looking at or shopping for. Hell, I didn't REALLY understand regulators 3 months into diving. I mostly thought of them as a mess of hoses. Sure, I understood what things were for, but didn't understand you could swap parts around, change hose-lengths, etc. (And now I service my own regs)
• Applicability: A new diver is unlikely to know what kind of diving they may want to do in 2-5 years. Personally, I got big into SideMount, which is a completely different gear-configuration than anything talked about here. As another example, you can spend $900 on a computer, only to later realize you really wanted air-integration or Bluetooth sync.

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I'm a Sr Software engineer, that's done a good bit of mentoring. Perhaps one of the biggest things in mentoring (aside from listening) is to carefully remember and consider what the inexperienced person does not know. A consistent thread in the advice I see you giving, is that you seem to implicitly assume these new divers know and understand a bunch of things, that they're unlikely to know.

I do agree that a Backplate + Wing setup is actually a good piece of equipment for a brand new diver, even though some people classify that as "technical equipment" it's really something a new diver can grow into, doesn't cost more, and the fact that it may not be perfect for that diver is really one of the BP+W features, in that you can swap parts, adjust it, upgrade it, etc. It's not good for a new diver because it's technical, but rather because of the modularity.

A lot of other technical equipment really doesn't work that way. If your computer doesn't have Air Integration, and you want AI, you need a new computer. If your regs aren't made for cold-water, ultra-deep, or salt-water dives, you may discover you want or need completely different regs. Even fins; some fins are great for flutter kick ,but terrible at frog or reverse kick .... or vice-versa.

To use an extreme and somewhat absurd example, if I slapped my sidemount rig on a brand new diver they'd be absolutely miserable, and not because there's anything wrong with my equipment.

 

[Belzelbub]

On the other hand, if those were the only choices, I would have pushed the Nighthawk, too. Maybe the he was being honest.

Not this shop. They would just push ScubaPro over everything else. Honesty was not in their business model. I believe they also used the “life support equipment” line as well.

I looked at both. While I didn’t hate the Knighthawk, I preferred the Stiletto. Still do. My buddy just switched to a Stiletto from a Knighthawk, and immediately preferred it. When a customer asks to look at a specific model, you show them what they asked for. My Stiletto has held up well. If I were to buy again, and choose between Stiletto and Knighthawk, I’d make the same choice.

 

[travisfull]

Yes, much of technical-diving gear can be used for recreational diving. There are several problems though:

• Cost: Much of the gear may be more expensive. Plus, if someone dives 5 times per year, mostly in the Caribbean, what's the point of having a $1200 computer, $2000 regulators, and $3000 drysuit?
• Knowledge: A beginner diver doesn't know what they're looking at or shopping for. Hell, I didn't REALLY understand regulators 3 months into diving. I mostly thought of them as a mess of hoses. Sure, I understood what things were for, but didn't understand you could swap parts around, change hose-lengths, etc. (And now I service my own regs)
• Applicability: A new diver is unlikely to know what kind of diving they may want to do in 2-5 years. Personally, I got big into SideMount, which is a completely different gear-configuration than anything talked about here. As another example, you can spend $900 on a computer, only to later realize you really wanted air-integration or Bluetooth sync.

---

I'm a Sr Software engineer, that's done a good bit of mentoring. Perhaps one of the biggest things in mentoring (aside from listening) is to carefully remember and consider what the inexperienced person does not know. A consistent thread in the advice I see you giving, is that you seem to implicitly assume these new divers know and understand a bunch of things, that they're unlikely to know.

I do agree that a Backplate + Wing setup is actually a good piece of equipment for a brand new diver, even though some people classify that as "technical equipment" it's really something a new diver can grow into, doesn't cost more, and the fact that it may not be perfect for that diver is really one of the BP+W features, in that you can swap parts, adjust it, upgrade it, etc. It's not good for a new diver because it's technical, but rather because of the modularity.

A lot of other technical equipment really doesn't work that way. If your computer doesn't have Air Integration, and you want AI, you need a new computer. If your regs aren't made for cold-water, ultra-deep, or salt-water dives, you may discover you want or need completely different regs. Even fins; some fins are great for flutter kick ,but terrible at frog or reverse kick .... or vice-versa.

To use an extreme and somewhat absurd example, if I slapped my sidemount rig on a brand new diver they'd be absolutely miserable, and not because there's anything wrong with my equipment.

Few points on your very interesting comments:

• Cost: "Much of the gear may be more expensive". Not really, honestly. We should be honest about that: BP/W and fins have basically the same price of a lot similar product normally sold for recreational diving. On computer, the used market is full of perfectly functioning multi-gas computer (thanks to technical divers who likes changing often when new gear comes out). Regs? we can discuss it, but as others said before (and where I admitted I exaggerated the price) there are decent regs that can do all different style of diving with a decent price.
• Knowledge: "A beginner diver doesn't know what they're looking at or shopping for". I totally agree with you, this is why we should try to advise and/or suggest to new fellow diver what directions are available in our wonderful hobby. You ask advices to your local dealer, but then you often end up with the same holiday gear they sell to everyone.
• Applicability: "A new diver is unlikely to know what kind of diving they may want to do in 2-5 years". Don't agree; if you take that long, in my personal opinion, you don't probably dive that much or just during holiday, and in that case I tell you "Don't buy gear at all", because the price does not stand the usage. if you dive a decent number of time over the year (and Im not talking crazy numbers, 40-50 dives a year) you will soon realise what kind of stuff you like.

 

[L13]

You worry about some people having to replace a 150 computer by making everyone buy a $500 computer. Barely anyone goes tech, let them buy a proper computer then and use the original in gauge mode.

The mares Puck is as easy to operate as a shearwater. One press to cycle long press to select. Doesn't get simpler than that. It's certainly simpler than most of the suntos with their three context dependant buttons

Exactly! If they go tech, they are going to want more than the 500 computer, so they will be buying another one anyway. I would recommend more than the 1-button, and definitely nitrox capable for a first computer. After that, its personal choice/luxury/etc. but only if it doesn't break your budget for buying the rest of your kit.

 

[L13]

• on computers: does it make any sense to spend now 200£/$ on something you'll need to replace in 1 year? Most sophisticated multi-gas computer are as simple as the air/nitrox computer and the price are competitive. I mean, there are plenty of used multi-gas computer in the market at affordable price.

90% of the divers will never need to replace the $200 computer. 80% of the remainder, if they bought a mid-range multi-gas computer, will be replacing it within a year of starting multi-gas diving(whenever that is). Though personally, I don't think it is a bad idea to pay a bit more for a good screen, especially if you have old eyes.

 

[Ukmc]

Yep. There are many dive shops near me. Many, I won’t set foot in due to this practice, but I had to experience it and recognize it before I marked them off my list.

One example. I was shopping for a BC. I wanted to look at a Zeagle Stiletto. Yet, despite being a dealer for Zeagle, and having Stilettos in stock, the employee only wanted to point me to a ScubaPro Knighthawk. So, that shop lost out on a sale from me, as well as several additional sales over the years.

Trouble is knowing if you are in a good LDS or not. As a new diver, without a ton of experience, it can be tough to tell if the shop is being honest with you, or if they are just looking at you as easy money.

Fair enough. I guess, I got lucky that LDS that certified me ended up being a good one and trustworthy one with long term relationship for years on. I have tweaked my gear here and there over the years, however still have all my original gear as it was a quality purchase. I walk into the shop and feel like a part of a family. Never felt that they pushed any particular brand on me… However, I totally understand that there are places where the only thing they care about is a bottom dollar…

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is a description of a research study done decades ago. It will seem at first to have nothing to do with this topic, but I will tie it in.

In the study, school teachers were told to conduct an experiment with their classes. They were given a stack of pictures of people. They were given a script to read and told not to deviate from the script. The students were to look at each picture when the teacher held it up and score the person they saw on the picture as to the degree to which they thought those people were successful. They were not given a definition for "successful." Students were to use whatever definition they used; there were no wrong answers.

Before the experiment, the teachers were told that in previous tests in other schools, students pretty consistently scored the pictures in certain ways, and they told the teachers how the previous schools had scored the pictures. As anyone might guess, they lied. The results they gave the teachers were random. The results of the experiment showed that the students tended to score the pictures the way the teacher mistakenly believed they would.

There is a lot to unpack from this, but the way I apply it to scuba sales is that the people working the retail floor will push you in the direction they think you should go, even while they honestly believe they are objectively showing you the pros and cons of all the options.

 

[BoltSnap]

I believe, from my experience, that the majority of LDS personnel "push" what they believe is best for the customer exactly like what people here on SB do to those that come in here and ask for advice. Most folks here on SB "push" what they have been using because they think it is the best for them and thus others should use it too, not much different from people working at an LDS, just look at the SW cult clan here. These "devotees" to SW, push the over $1000 computer to people who are better served with a $300 dive computer.

For those that object to LDS using the "life support equipment" line, many of you use the "getting into technical diving in the future" to justify their advice to buy very expensive dive computers or other equipment just because they are using it and push the others to use it. Different words, same motive and result.

 

[Bigbella]

Avoid package deals at shops, like the plague itself.

Every example that I have seen has featured a weak link, whether p.o.s. regulators and octopuses; discontinued items (often with doubtful or even nonexistent warranties), such as some computers or BCs, etc. When I worked at shops as a kid, that was how extraneous crap was jettisoned -- operative word: crap. Run like hell from any "silver," "gold," or "platinum" packages. Some friends who run shops, will freely admit the sleazy up-sell and glitzy packaging.

I tend to disagree with those who suggest that regulators are not a primary concern and worth the cash. I would splurge on them; spend as much as you can -- name brands, who have a long history of support and avoid those with supposed "lifetime warranty" agreements on parts, which are, nowadays, fraught with more legalese and are about as skeezy as timeshares in Del Boca Vista or "rolling land" real estate opportunities in Florida. I also know of people who have bought off-brands, usually as "great deals" from online sources, who have been unable to find any local servicing or parts.

"Splurge on the regulators -- everything else is f**king window dressing," was the most sage diving advice that I had ever received; and I still believe that -- followed closely by "don't piss your suit."

When I first began, gear purchases were often seen as "one and done," akin to skiing equipment at one time; and a good number of friends still have and use regulators from decades past -- and I will service more than a few. We now live in the time of the "gear heads" for whom diving gear purchases are all but continual, with the advent of every new or spurious bell and whistle; and I frequently see fellow divers having replaced gear, as one would a pair of running shoes.

I still have some regulators that see regular use, four decades later, when I was a teenager with a piss-poor Summer job, thinking that I had just, stupidly, blown a "fortune" on scuba gear.

That kid was smarter than I had given him credit . . .

 

[boulderjohn]

Avoid package deals at shops, like you would have avoided a wet-coughing toddler with a pendant length of green snot, traveling from his nose to his wrist and swaying, elastically, non-breaking, like a jump rope, during the height of the covidiocy.

Every example that I have seen has featured a weak link, whether p.o.s. regulators and octopuses; discontinued items, such as computers or BCs, etc. When I worked at shops as a kid, that was how extraneous crap was jettisoned -- operative word: crap. Run like hell from "silver," "gold," and "platinum" packages. Some friends who run shops, will freely admit the up-sell.

Even when everything in the package is reasonably good quality, you should normally avoid it.

The goal of the shop is to maintain a certain profit margin in overall sales. Some items sell below that margin. Some are way, way above it. A package contains items you need to buy and items you probably would not buy if they weren't part of the package. Those items have huge markups, and they bring the total package markup above the target margin.