Next step for longer bottom times on deep dives?

[doctormike]

What is the verifiable rate of death/injury per number of RB divers vs rate of death/injury of OC divers.

Statistics! Great.

Let me know what you want to use as your denominator. Just "per diver"? Do you want to just look at "divers", so a deep CCR push into a cave at 300 FFW counts as much as a Discover Diving class?

And if its significant, why are people so quick to recommend them?

I don't EVER minimize the risks of CCR. I know that it adds risks (and removes some others). But why do we recommend scuba diving at all? Certainly it's a lot safer to stay out of the water, there are plenty of recreational OC deaths as well.

As much as I love mine, I agree that rebreathers are not for everybody, which is why I have pushed back against those in this thread who said that the OC should just go CCR.

 

[ginti]

Certainly it's a lot safer to stay out of the water, there are plenty of recreational OC deaths as well.

From the Wikipedia page I posted above

Fatality rates of 16.4 deaths per 100,000 persons per year among DAN America members and 14.4 deaths per 100,000 persons per year the British Sub-Aqua Club (BSAC) members were similar and did not change during 2000–2006. This is comparable with jogging (13 deaths per 100,000 persons per year) and motor vehicle accidents (16 deaths per 100,000 persons per year), and within the range where reduction is desirable by Health and Safety Executive (HSE) criteria

But yes, fun is the important thing here

 

[MichaelMc]

Back to the OP:
A light back gas deco class is an option as well (PADI, RAID, IANTD, SSI), as some mentioned. It should involve redundant gas, but some keep gasses limited to nitrox 40 so no need to get into O2 clean gear.
ETA: With deco time limited and depths limited to 130' and thus lighter cylinder requirements.

It is not as 'efficient' in terms of minimal number of classes, but it may be the stepping stone to start with after a fundamentals class (RAID, UTD, GUE). If you're only doing light deco, an O2 setup may only buy you a few minutes shorter deco, at an increased complexity. If you want some HE before AN/DP/Helitrox, that is possible as well (IANTD, RAID, GUE, UTD).

 

[doctormike]

Back to the OP:
A light back gas deco class is an option as well (PADI, RAID, IANTD, SSI), as some mentioned. It should involve redundant gas, but some keep gasses limited to nitrox 40 so no need to get into O2 clean gear.

It is not as 'efficient' in terms of minimal number of classes, but it may be the stepping stone to start with after a fundamentals class (RAID, UTD, GUE). If you're only doing light deco, an O2 setup may only buy you a few minutes shorter deco, at an increased complexity. If you feel like some HE before AN/DP/Helitrox, that is possible as well (IANTD, RAID, GUE, UTD).

This is a good point. I don't know about other agencies, but TDI breaks this up into DP and AN, and if you are just doing back gas deco there is plenty to learn without taking on accelerated deco with rich mixes. Most people take them together, but there is no reason why the OP couldn't just to DP and see if it was for them...

 

[rhwestfall]

As I mentioned upthread, NAUI has separate certs....

Technical EANx Diver
Decompression Techniques Diver

 

[Angelo Farina]

This is a good point. I don't know about other agencies, but TDI breaks this up into DP and AN, and if you are just doing back gas deco there is plenty to learn without taking on accelerated deco with rich mixes. Most people take them together, but there is no reason why the OP couldn't just to DP and see if it was for them...

Most agencies here in Europe, such as Cmas, Bsac, Fipsas, Fias train for light deco on back gas in their recreational programs.
No need to go tech for this...
And what is taught here is that planning and conducting a dive slightly beyond the NDL results in a much safer dive than riding the NDL limit, with the hope (often missed on a wreck dive) of not surpassing it.

 

[Marie13]

Most agencies here in Europe, such as Cmas, Bsac, Fipsas, Fias train for light deco on back gas in their recreational programs.
No need to go tech for this...
And what is taught here is that planning and conducting a dive slightly beyond the NDL results in a much safer dive than riding the NDL limit, with the hope (often missed on a wreck dive) of not surpassing it.

Not how true it is, but I’ve heard stories of non-deco trained divers wanting to do deco dives off tech charters in the US, and they were not allowed to dive.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Not how true it is, but I’ve heard stories of non-deco trained divers wanting to do deco dives off tech charters in the US, and they were not allowed to dive.

Quite obvious, without a deco certification.
But my recreational Cmas *** certification is for buddy diving down to 50m with deco in air...
My point is that most people in US identify deco with tech diving.
Instead deco diving can be done without technical training, you just need traditional recreational training as it has always been done here in Europe since the fifties...
And how is still being done nowadays.

 

[doctormike]

Quite obvious, without a deco certification.
But my recreational Cmas *** certification is for buddy diving down to 50m with deco in air...
My point is that most people in US identify deco with tech diving.
Instead deco diving can be done without technical training, you just need traditional recreational training as it has always been done here in Europe since the fifties...
And how is still being done nowadays.

This always comes down to semantics. How do you define "recreational diving" in Europe? Here, the dividing line is simple - if you have a deco obligation, we call it tech diving. But I do understand that you could have a system where you can learn how to do back gas deco up to an arbitrary limit and call it recreational. I have no problem with that, but of course that simply implies that you are moving some of what we would call tech training into a rec course.

Perhaps we should stick with the stricter definition of recreational diving - just to cause more confusion! It's recreational if no one is paying you to do it.

 

[barth]

This always comes down to semantics. How do you define "recreational diving" in Europe? Here, the dividing line is simple - if you have a deco obligation, we call it tech diving. But I do understand that you could have a system where you can learn how to do back gas deco up to an arbitrary limit and call it recreational. I have no problem with that, but of course that simply implies that you are moving some of what we would call tech training into a rec course.

Perhaps we should stick with the stricter definition of recreational diving - just to cause more confusion! It's recreational if no one is paying you to do it.

Global underwater explorers is located in the us. Rec 3 is 15 minutes deco and not tech. ;-)You don’t even need tech skills for 15 minutes of deco...

But I cannot remember when I did my last backgas deco dive. I always bring decogas for a deco dive. With a decogas I can have a longer bottomtime.