picking out first reg and question about a "balanced" second stage

[rscott9399]

I think the suggestion of not buying anything until AFTER you get through training and a little more experience is well founded. There is a great volume of gear out there that can be perplexing to sort though. The best way is to rent what you think you like and try it out in conjunction with other gear. You will also be diving with people who carry spares and with a little persuasion, they will let you take a spare on a dive. You could also borrow a friends check it out... In most cases that is easy especially after them having bragged bout how good it is and the "wise" choice they made in purchasing it.

I have been diving a long time and have accumulated far too many regulators over the years, but for the most part, my alibi has been technological upgrades... At this stage of the game, after trying numerous regulators, I have finally settled on the brand I want, not only to simplify the parts count, but to know they all breath the same and I have the tools to maintain it. Scubapro MK25's with S600, G260, G250V, X650 is used on all my tanks. I trust all of these enough to run em' on bail out, decompression and recreational use. Note: the G260 hose can be mounted on ether side of the regulator... so if side mount is in your future, it can be handy. So buying from the jump without having the exposure to available gear, will tie up a bunch of money and potentially put you in the re-sale market.

Now to answer your question: I recommend the balanced second, get metal barrels. They don't ice and breath "wetter". All of the aforementioned seconds have them.

I think under normal circumstance i would agree with you. In Colorado its we would call that a ski demo not a ski rental.
The issue i think for us as someone said above, is after looking at whats available for rental equipment, most of it seems very low end basic entry level stuff i wouldn't consider for purchase.
The place we are headed says most of there stuff is scuba pro. She mentioned the R195 on some and she said there is other brands as well.
However, i was hoping for something a little better then a 195 for a rental.
So i think the issue is, by the looks of what is rented on the market, i may never get to try anything nice with rental stuff because it seems most of the rental gear is very basic

 

[rscott9399]

Don't judge scuba by "snuba". Snuba runs on a lower intermediate pressure than scuba so they are not comparable. While the second stages may look the same the springs are lighter because of the lower pressure. Also as someone already pointed out gear in tourist locations is mostly crap and not maintained.

Most regulators (except for some Poseidon models) are downstream so the upstream downstream argument is moot.

Balanced regulators breath the same regardless of air pressure. Unbalanced regulators breath harder at lower tank pressures. The main disadvantage of balanced regulators it that they are more complicated.

Hi, thanks for the reply. I understand a bit about the balanced first stage. I wouldn't even consider one i dont think. My questions were really centered around trying to understand the difference between up/down stream second stages, etc

 

[Blasto]

... All he is going to try is crap rental equipment.

He's going to, ugh, actually dive with a complete SCUBA unit. This tends to give one a much, much better idea of what they need from their gear than simply window shopping.

Even with low end rental stuff, it's enough to feel the areas where you'd want improvement, some hints on how the equipment fits to you personally. What to focus on, what questions to ask.

 

[2airishuman]

The conspiracy theory again, these evil professional people who are trying to make a quick buck by being expert professionals and giving advice and guidance to their clients.

They're trying to make a quick buck by perpetuating an outmoded business model at my expense and selling products that I find to be overpriced.

ScubaPro, Atomic, etc., all make great gear -- don't get me wrong. It's just that, with their retailing model, it's an unnecessary expense in an expensive hobby. I'd rather spend the money on travel, or a drysuit.

 

[2airishuman]

My questions were really centered around trying to understand the difference between up/down stream second stages, etc

Implementation details really. My main 1st stages have upstream-opening valves (except some older Calypso and Aeris 1st stages which are downstream pistons), and my 2nd stages are all downstream-opening. In theory downstream-opening valves are less likely to fail shut, but actual dive experience with various regulator designs doesn't bear that out in practice.

 

[ams511]

My questions were really centered around trying to understand the difference between up/down stream second stages, etc

The only upstream regulators (I know of) that are still on the market are the Poseidon Jet Streams. All other regulators use a downstream design. That is why I said not to worry about the difference.

 

[tbone1004]

Come on @tbone1004 , this extremely long winded attempt to explain the difference is nothing more than a prelude to a plug for your own peculiar preference and bias in regulators and doesn't address what OP wants to know or actually needs. It is all skewed to drive the reader to just buy into the regulators and specific set ups you want.

why because I didn't recommend a scubapro or Atomic? You know why I refuse to recommend Scubapro in this country. Atomic is just not a good value because of how insanely expensive they are. The Z2 is not 30% better than the Deep6, the M1 is not 100% better, so what are you getting for the money? No real performance improvements, no real reliability improvements in terms of time between service or overall life of the regulator, certainly no customer service improvements. My 40+ year old Poseidon's are older than Atomic as a company and are still going quite strong. Several of which I know have well over 2k dives on them from their previous owner

how does that post not address what the OP wants to know or needs to know? It clearly explains how an upstream vs. downstream valve works, explains how a balance chamber works, and addresses the concerns of why you would want a balanced regulator. He said he knows that people have personal preferences and he is open to those as well, so why am I not allowed to say what they are?

you keep claiming reliability of the Atomic regs vs. others as well as breathing performance. I recommended a reg that is certified to 200m under the ice. Atomic can't do that.... You also have to prove why it is a better value. You buy a product on a function of price, quality, performance, and service. Atomic has the quality, but their performance is really no better than any other high end reg so that's out, the customer service is really not great especially after they sold to Huish, and it is substantially more expensive than other options. Why buy it? Can you honestly say that it is twice the regulator that the Deep6 is? That it will perform twice as well, last twice as long etc? Have you seen or held or taken apart one of those regulators?

on your conspiracy comment, are you claiming that @boulderjohn is lying about his experience that caused him to leave his shop? I know @victorzamora can pipe in with another example of it if you really want. I have a few direct ones but know you won't believe any of those because I'm skewed and biased.

@OkByMe please enlighten me on where I can rent a MK25/S600 or any other high end regulator. I'd love to know because I don't know anyone who has them in a rental fleet. I know a few demo centers in cave country where you can test some of the high end regulators, but am unaware of any that do that with Scubapro. I think one of them now may do it with Atomic and @Kristi@CCDS can confirm if they do, but unaware of others.

 

[shurite7]

Hello all

I dont want to spend a lot but a few things i would like after a Snuba experience on a cruise is a reg that flows nicely. While doing a Snuba trip i was not able to tilt vertical in the water. The reg became very hard to breath from and was forced to look strait down the whole time.

I cant seem to get a strait answer from people on the cause. I have been told by some that is because it was an unbalanced 1st stage and by others it was because it was a crappy 2nd second stage

I have a little extra coin so why not?
I can spend more then $300 but dont want to spend $800 either.

I was looking at the scuba pro Mk11/560 combo and also the Mk11/C350 Combo
I really like the slim design and look of the C350

Regardless if you purchase an unbalanced or balanced second stage there is a difference in resistance when it comes to orientation in the water. While looking down the buoyancy of the water pushes on the diaphragm of the second stage which makes it fairly easy to breathe. While looking up it is harder to breathe because the pressure on the diaphragm is less than what it was while looking down because there is no buoyancy pushing on the diaphragm. If you are looking straight ahead a good regulator will still breathe fairly easy. Some regulators are easier to breathe in the above situation when they are balanced, some call it pneumatically assisted, versus those that are not. Nevertheless, one can feel the difference when it comes to your orientation in the water.

The Mk11/S560 is a nice setup. The S560 is a balanced / pneumatically assisted second stage. Basically the S560 is an S600 with the polymer plastic housing / barrel, which is preferred in warm tropical water, rather than a metal one, which is preferred in cold water.

The Mk11/C350 is also a nice setup. Like the S560 is does have a inhalation effort control knob, which unbalanced second stages do not, and a venturi assist lever. Although it is not a so called balanced second stage it breathes quite well. I have a couple of them and found they work quite well. A couple of friends dive strictly in the tropics and have the Mk11/C350 set up and have stated they really like it.

I don't think you can go wrong with either setup. As Alex Bryleske, a long experienced diver who used to write for Dive Training magazine, stated, don't skimp on a regulator. Purchase a reliable one.

 

[rscott9399]

The only upstream regulators (I know of) that are still on the market are the Poseidon Jet Streams. All other regulators use a downstream design. That is why I said not to worry about the difference.

Thanks! I think i understand a bit better now

 

[boulderjohn]

The issue i think for us as someone said above, is after looking at whats available for rental equipment, most of it seems very low end basic entry level stuff i wouldn't consider for purchase.

In my experience in Colorado, you are mostly but not entirely correct. Some rent out only the same very basic stuff they use for rentals, but some actually do rent out higher quality gear. The problem you will have as a beginning diver in Aurora Reservoir (or somewhere similar) is telling the difference. The cheap regulators used for swimming pool work will breathe perfectly fine at 20 feet. You also will not have the diving skill to know what you are looking for in fins and BCDs. (Fins make a HUGE difference as you gain more skill.)