picking out first reg and question about a "balanced" second stage

[Blasto]

Curious why you say this?

Indeed, we can always use more "did 5 dives, discovered it's not for me" gear for 35% off the lowest sale price in the Classifieds... the question is, do you want to be the seller?

 

[2airishuman]

I dont want to spend a lot but a few things i would like after a Snuba experience on a cruise is a reg that flows nicely. While doing a Snuba trip i was not able to tilt vertical in the water. The reg became very hard to breath from and was forced to look strait down the whole time.

I cant seem to get a strait answer from people on the cause. I have been told by some that is because it was an unbalanced 1st stage and by others it was because it was a crappy 2nd second stage

Any regulator on the market today is a good regulator and will breathe fine. My regs are 40 years old and breathe just as well as the fancy new ones $$$$. Expensive and new does not mean better. Balanced 2nd stages are not necessary for SCUBA with a balanced 1st since the IP is stable.

With SNUBA and other hookah diving systems the IP at the 2nd stage varies with depth and an unbalanced 2nd stage will not breathe as well as you get deeper, but the 20' depth limit for SNUBA is shallow enough that the difference is barely noticeable.

Regulators have to be tuned right to work right. You might have had a regulator that was either improperly serviced, overdue for service, or that had been deliberately detuned (to reduce the likelihood of freeflows if it was in the water and not in a diver's mouth)

The position of the regulator compared to the position of your lungs affects work of breathing also which is why some positions were worse. With modern single-hose regulators the performance is worst when you are vertical in the water and have your head tilted back so that the regulator is quite a distance above your lungs. This is true whether the reg is set up right or not, but it is more noticeable in a reg that is already breathing poorly.

 

[rscott9399]

enjoy! as a pilot you should be used to digesting information like that so I wrote it a bit more in line with that background vs. someone unfamiliar with mechanical things.
Any clarifications, please ask.
Out of curiosity, why did you settle on those two regulators that you mentioned?

Well, more or less because i dont know any better
I was told by someone that ScubaPro has just been around a long time and knows what they are doing. So my thought was, why mess up a good thing... i guess?
Those regs seemed to be in an entry level price point. or maybe just a tiny step above entry level at around $450 give or take the shop

Although after talking to some more people today and other dive store clerks the top two recommendations seem to be the atomic B2 and the Aqua Lung Legend LX although a totally different price points.

Background on how that came up.....

These were suggested because i was specially asking for a very high quality Octo. I have read much on inflator safe seconds and although i have zero experience im not sure i subscribe to the primary donate method. but before i get scolded i am openly admitting that i have no experience with either. As an engineer and pilot i can see the arguments for both. Personal gut feeling is i would like a traditional octo better for my wife and i.
So while asking for the nicest octo available i was told the B2 and Legend.

Im sure this opens a can of warms for debate just like airplane crap, dirtbike crap, climbing crap lol and every other technical sport/hobby

i can quickly see that this can be a money pit like my airplane

The big hesitation is we live in Colorado and will dive only a few times a year but that doesn't mean i dont want the best and safest gear money can buy for those few times we do dive i guess....

if i only flew once a month would i want a cheap knock off engine or a real pratt and whitney
Not to imply that cheaper regs are bad because really... what do i know at this point right? just kinda making a joke

 

[tbone1004]

go find @boulderjohn he can help sort you out in person and is legit.

now, here are my very blunt opinions to feel free to take it or leave it.

You will hear entry level, technical only etc. thrown out about gear, but it's all bullsh!t
Here's the deal. If gear is good enough for us to take it to extreme depth or in cave, there is no reason that it isn't good enough for any new diver to use when they first start. Our students learn in backplates and wings, learn primary donate, etc etc.
Just because Ford has been making cars for 100 years and they' know what they're doing, doesn't mean they are the best and if you're a new driver and need something cheap like a Ford Fiesta for your commute, there is nothing saying that you can't do that same commute in a Tesla.

Unfortunately with dive gear there is not an easy correlation between price and just about anything because of some major changes in the way scuba gear is manufactured and sold. Manufacturers like @cool_hardware52 who owns Deep Sea Supply sells what is in my opinion the highest quality and best value BCD's on the market. He sells direct and if you call their number he will talk with you about his gear and help guide you to what you need. Out the door for less than $500 for a BCD that will last you the rest of your life.
Similarly @cerich caused massive disruption in the industry when he founded HOG and started selling high quality regulators at very low cost. His new company is @Deep Six and has taken that a large step forward. He is selling a first and second stage for $375 that is better than the Aqualung Legend LX which costs twice as much, and is still better than the Atomic Z2 that is about $100 more. Neither of those include the first free service, or have the features and customer service that Deep6 can provide.

With scuba gear, it is safe to buy with the end in mind. I.e. look at what you want to do with your diving, and buy gear appropriate for that. There is nothing that we use in technical diving that is inappropriate for shallow, warm water reef diving. Conversely, there is loads of gear marketed for new divers that are completely inappropriate for technical diving. Depending on what you believe, you can argue that if it isn't good enough for those doing that kind of diving, why should it be good enough for me? It would be one thing if it was significantly more expensive and then you could argue that it is good enough, but the gear is comparably priced, or in most cases less expensive, especially if you are wanting to purchase new gear.

I firmly believe that primary donate is safer than secondary anything and outside of extenuating circumstances like CCR and double hose regulators where you can't do primary donate, it is by far a superior regulator configuration that is streamlined and both safer for you/your buddy as well as your dive gear. Conveniently, if you buy your gear right, and want it set up for secondary donate then change your mind, you'll be out about $25 for a ball swivel, and a dollar for some bungee cord to make a suicide strap. If you purchase a 22" and 40" hose, then you will be able to go back and forth between the two configurations with no other purchases required. I would strongly recommend you read up on the threads on the how and why we believe in primary donate. That said, you made the right decision about going away from inflator/octo combo's.

I would take the Deep6 regulators anywhere that I dive, including a mile+back in a cave with no hesitations and I say that because I've done it. I can't say that about some of the others.

 

[george_austin]

99.9% of just about any single hose regulator out there is going to service you for years to come - as others have said here. I might advise you to try and look into the future and what you might like 5 years and 500 or 1000 dives from now. Take your time. Diving equipment aint going nowhere. The regulators I use from the 1960's and early 1970's are some of the finest breathers I own and I possess something like 30 + regulators from a Voit Avalon flow by piston, tilt valve that had an original MSRP in 1962 of 34.95USD to a Scubapro Mk25EVO +G260 that is less than a year old. Modern and expensive doesn't necessarily mean better and the older chromed stuff is classic cool in the aesthetics and ease of maintenance department.

Don't forget to look over double hose rigs as well. Maybe you are thinking of photography / videography and if so, a double hose is hands down superior to a single hose. IME. - (one of the reasons)

Again, don't rush it. I see a lot of good stuff in classified ads that was abandoned by people who've quit and now have barely used really good stuff for sale at "give it away" cost.

 

[rscott9399]

go find @boulderjohn he can help sort you out in person and is legit.

now, here are my very blunt opinions to feel free to take it or leave it.

You will hear entry level, technical only etc. thrown out about gear, but it's all bullsh!t
Here's the deal. If gear is good enough for us to take it to extreme depth or in cave, there is no reason that it isn't good enough for any new diver to use when they first start. Our students learn in backplates and wings, learn primary donate, etc etc.
Just because Ford has been making cars for 100 years and they' know what they're doing, doesn't mean they are the best and if you're a new driver and need something cheap like a Ford Fiesta for your commute, there is nothing saying that you can't do that same commute in a Tesla.

Unfortunately with dive gear there is not an easy correlation between price and just about anything because of some major changes in the way scuba gear is manufactured and sold. Manufacturers like @cool_hardware52 who owns Deep Sea Supply sells what is in my opinion the highest quality and best value BCD's on the market. He sells direct and if you call their number he will talk with you about his gear and help guide you to what you need. Out the door for less than $500 for a BCD that will last you the rest of your life.
Similarly @cerich caused massive disruption in the industry when he founded HOG and started selling high quality regulators at very low cost. His new company is @Deep Six and has taken that a large step forward. He is selling a first and second stage for $375 that is better than the Aqualung Legend LX which costs twice as much, and is still better than the Atomic Z2 that is about $100 more. Neither of those include the first free service, or have the features and customer service that Deep6 can provide.

With scuba gear, it is safe to buy with the end in mind. I.e. look at what you want to do with your diving, and buy gear appropriate for that. There is nothing that we use in technical diving that is inappropriate for shallow, warm water reef diving. Conversely, there is loads of gear marketed for new divers that are completely inappropriate for technical diving. Depending on what you believe, you can argue that if it isn't good enough for those doing that kind of diving, why should it be good enough for me? It would be one thing if it was significantly more expensive and then you could argue that it is good enough, but the gear is comparably priced, or in most cases less expensive, especially if you are wanting to purchase new gear.

I firmly believe that primary donate is safer than secondary anything and outside of extenuating circumstances like CCR and double hose regulators where you can't do primary donate, it is by far a superior regulator configuration that is streamlined and both safer for you/your buddy as well as your dive gear. Conveniently, if you buy your gear right, and want it set up for secondary donate then change your mind, you'll be out about $25 for a ball swivel, and a dollar for some bungee cord to make a suicide strap. If you purchase a 22" and 40" hose, then you will be able to go back and forth between the two configurations with no other purchases required. I would strongly recommend you read up on the threads on the how and why we believe in primary donate. That said, you made the right decision about going away from inflator/octo combo's.

I would take the Deep6 regulators anywhere that I dive, including a mile+back in a cave with no hesitations and I say that because I've done it. I can't say that about some of the others.

Thanks very much for explaining your point of view.
I may have misunderstood the primary donate philosophy if i understand you correct.

I was under the impression that primary donate was a technique mostly reserved for inflator safe seconds?
aka, Air 2, Air control etc....

Is that not true?
Goes to show you how much learning i have to do...

 

[tbone1004]

Thanks very much for explaining your point of view.
I may have misunderstood the primary donate philosophy if i understand you correct.

I was under the impression that primary donate was a technique mostly reserved for inflator safe seconds?
aka, Air 2, Air control etc....

Is that not true?
Goes to show you how much learning i have to do...

it is required with Air2's because you can't give up a regulator that also controls your buoyancy. It is chosen by basically all technical divers with the octopus on a necklace because it's better

FKD - Single Regulator Configuration

 

[Blasto]

I was under the impression that primary donate was a technique mostly reserved for inflator safe seconds?
aka, Air 2, Air control etc....
Is that not true?

No, not true. Inflator-regulators, if used as the only redundant second, make primary donate mandatory, since they can't be donated.

But primary donate is also either strongly preferred or mandatory any time multiple gases are being used (in tech diving).
Primary donate is also practical (but optional and less common) in rec diving.

Speaking of buying with an end in mind: try and do a few dives before you decide on what end to pursue - your goals might change.

 

[BoltSnap]

The s560 is a much better second stage than the other second stage. Although the MK11 first stage is a very good high entry level first stage, the MK17 with s560 combination is a superior combination and will serve you well for many years to come and for ALL ranges of your recreational diving and it will be one of the most reliable first/second stages out there (we standardize on this combination for most of our rental/training fleet in our dive school). The MK17/S560 combination is only few $$ more than the MK11/s560 or the other combination. You will probably spend more than the difference on a fast food meal. I am not sure, however, if the MK17/S560 combination is available in the US. It is available in our region, EMEA region, and the value/price is just awesome. The MK17/s560 is a high end recreational set up that can't be beat.

 

[rscott9399]

Valid point there above. Who knows what my goals may be in the future
I suppose part of my eagerness to buy our own stuff is strictly paranoia and no trust for rental companies of damn near anything.

I think i have picked a reputable place for our training but who really knows right? I just hope they provide some quality decent equipment.
but that was the main motivation to buy now. and for around $1k a person i figured why not? not that i have money to just burn but i am not afraid to invest a little either