NAUI versus PADI

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A student must be able, for example to clear a fully flooded mask repeatedly, correctly and fluidly. That's 1 item from the checklist (mask clear-fully flooded) plus the definition of mastery. Together that makes up one so called "performance requirement". In the PADI system there are couple of dozen or so "performance requirements" of this sort that comprise the standard for the open water course.

When put like that, how are you going to hold students to "a higher standard"? Is there a better definition of mastery than "repeatable, correct and fluid" when it comes to student training?

It seems to me that if you made the standard objective, instead of subjective, it would benefit everyone - AND then you could also understand what it would mean to hold students to a higher standard.

If you want a student to clear a fully flooded mask, you can say "they must clear a fully flooded mask repeatedly, correctly, and fluidly." Or, you could say "they must clear a fully flooded mask 3 times, while maintaining their starting depth within +/- 3 feet, not touching the bottom or breaking the surface, maintaining trim within 30 degrees of horizontal, and completing the skill in less than 30 seconds." That's just an example. How is it better for anyone to have "standards" that are totally subjective, instead of quantifying the standards?

With an objective standard defined, holding a student to a higher standard becomes pretty easy to understand. E.g. they have to maintain depth within +/- 1.5 feet. That would be a higher standard.

Note: Whether a particular agency allows an instructor to require meeting a higher standard is a separate issue that I am not invoking here. But, if an agency specifically desires to prevent instructors from adding requirements in order for a student to achieve certification, then it definitely seems that the PADI subjective way of defining standards (used as an example only because it's the one that has been cited in this thread) fails to achieve that. This thread already has several examples of how an instructor can bend the current standards to suit their desire to require the student to achieve more than what the standard actually requires.
 
It seems to me that if you made the standard objective, instead of subjective, it would benefit everyone
I disagree and would stop teaching altogether. There's too much legalese in the Scuba industry already. If you want to learn how to clear your mask, go see a lawyer. If you want to learn how to dive, I'll be glad to help you out. The difference might be subtle to some, but it's incredibly sharp and clear to me.
 
Man , Am I ever sorry for even starting this Thread It seems to have escalated incredibly, to the point that, I Have no idea WTF IS GOING ON.
It is kinda like a Faculty Meeting; the arguments are passionate and long because the stakes are so low.
 
I disagree and would stop teaching altogether. There's too much legalese in the Scuba industry already. If you want to learn how to clear your mask, go see a lawyer. If you want to learn how to dive, I'll be glad to help you out. The difference might be subtle to some, but it's incredibly sharp and clear to me.

How would having objective standards be any kind of problem for you? From what you have posted, it seems like you would be meeting or exceeding every objective standard that would apply.
 
ps. the thread title calls out NAUI and PADI, but I have to say that, while I have not done any training with GUE, I have been very interested in taking Fundies and, in part, it's because they do have clear, objective standards (as far as I understand it, anyway). I have even been told that (not sure if it's true) they record you on video when you do your "test" so that an independent instructor can evaluate your performance to confirm your certification/rating (whatever they call it). That appeals to me, in part, because I would be confident that I didn't "pass" because the instructor who I've paid has simply gotten tired of dealing with me and decided to accept a marginal performance that a different instructor might have failed me for.

And I'm not saying anyone in this thread would do that - or that any GUE instructor would do that. I'm just saying that, from a student perspective, it would give me more satisfaction/confidence to know that there was an objective standard and that I met (or exceeded) it not just in the eyes of the person who has been teaching me (and has some interest/stake in seeing me pass) but also in the eyes of a completely independent 3rd party whose primary interest is really in NOT passing me unless I have clearly met the standards.
 
This thread already has several examples of how an instructor can bend the current standards to suit their desire to require the student to achieve more than what the standard actually requires.

The wiggle room goes both ways but you're right.

As for the standards being subjective. The point is supposed to be that by the time a person becomes an instructor they should have, to pick an example, a good mental picture of what a proper mask clear looks like.

This mental picture is the thing we called "calibration" earlier in the thread.

What happens, though is that some instructors will drift off of that mental picture. The instructors we complain about are the ones who accept clearly inadequate mask clearing so that they can tick it off their list and move on. There are several skills that if not taught well enough could put the student in danger. Mask clearing is one of them.

Other instructors will perhaps reject a perfectly functional mask clear because it doesn't meet their mental picture. Perhaps such an instructor will require the student to do it one-handed, for example and reject it if the student touches the mask with both hands.

Both of those instructors are using the wiggle room the standard offers but in between those two extremes there is a large bandwidth of "proper mask clearing" that should be acceptable. If you pin it down too much then you lose flexibility.

R..
 
It seems to me that if you made the standard objective, instead of subjective, it would benefit everyone - AND then you could also understand what it would mean to hold students to a higher standard.

I disagree and would stop teaching altogether. There's too much legalese in the Scuba industry already. If you want to learn how to clear your mask, go see a lawyer. If you want to learn how to dive, I'll be glad to help you out. The difference might be subtle to some, but it's incredibly sharp and clear to me.

How would having objective standards be any kind of problem for you? From what you have posted, it seems like you would be meeting or exceeding every objective standard that would apply.
I will respond from the point of view of an educational theorist who used to teach assessment theory. I used to teach how to evaluate students performances in a variety of subjects, and I trained people to do those evaluations in high stakes assessments. In my training, I emphasized why striving for such objectivity was a serious mistake. When you attempt to create a scoring guide of the kind you made, there are precious few legitimate objective criteria you can use, and in many cases there are none. So you end of stretching to find the criteria you use, and you end up depending upon criteria that are not really valid and ignoring the truly valid evidence.

In assessment, we use the terms reliability and validity. In overly simplistic terms, reliability is the ability of two different evaluators to give the same score to the same performance; validity is the degree to which that score reflects the true quality of the performance. Untrained assessors are so focused on reliability that they lose track of validity. As a result, they get a completely reliable system that does not properly assess the performance, and it can be wildly off target.

For the trainings I did, I had a variety of examples in different subject areas--including even something as cut and dried as math. I would give the trainees an objective scoring guide and ask them to rate the quality of the guide before using it. Invariably, they would have no problem with it. I would then have them use it to score sample performances, and invariably they would all score them the same, showing that the guides were reliable. Then they would look at the samples using only their common sense and see that they had given the worst performances the best scores and given the best performances the worst scores. In my math example, I divided the training group into 5 subgroups and gave each one a scoring guide. Each group said the guide was great. I then gave each group a student test to grade, and the 5 groups came up with scores of 98, 87, 56, 27 and 0 (I don't remember each one exactly.) Each group was satisfied with those results until I told them that they had all graded the same test. I asked them to just look at the student's work and tell how he did based on their common sense, and they all said he had done just great--even the group that had just happily scored him at the 0 level! Their common sense, with no training at all, was both reliable and much more valid than the supposedly objective system they had used.

If you go to the College Board website and register, you can download released examples of the open (performance) questions from old Advanced Placement (AP) exams. You can download the scoring guides, which tell evaluators how to score performances on a 9-point scale. You will be shocked at how subjective and non-objective those scoring guides are. All student performances are scored by two graders, and those two graders will agree on the same number on that 9-point scale more than 90% of the time. That is because of the training they receive prior to becoming graders, and that training is roughly the same as the training a scuba instructor receives during training.
 
I will respond from the point of view of an educational theorist who used to teach assessment theory.

You made a great case for using reliable AND valid objective criteria.

The issues you cited are not unique to Education. I write software for a living. Assessing programmer productivity has the same problems. In the old days, you had some managers who assessed productivity based on KLOCs. K (thousand) Lines of Code. I programmer with more KLOCs must be more productive, right? Wrong. If you write 1000 lines of code to accomplish a task and I do the same thing with 10 lines of code, one cannot conclude that you did a better job than I did.

You did not make a case that I could discern that there is no way to establish reliable and valid objective criteria for evaluating the skills that need to be learned in OW class.

I am not an instructor, so I have no direct experience on teaching scuba. Maybe it is true that there is no way to establish reliable and valid objective criteria for evaluating the skills that need to be learned in an OW class. But, I am unconvinced as yet.

Also, note that I am not saying that a strict, objective, quantitative assessment of the individual skills should be the only bar to earning an OW C card. For example, a person could perform all the skills to standard, but still demonstrate completely poor judgment that renders them unfit to be handed a C card. The instructor should certainly have the flexibility to make that call.
 
. For example, a person could perform all the skills to standard, but still demonstrate completely poor judgment that renders them unfit to be handed a C card. The instructor should certainly have the flexibility to make that call.

You can.

There is a section in the general standards and procedures that addresses instructor judgment and risk mitigation. If, at some point during the course, I really have the feeling that a given student should have picked another hobby there is nothing stopping me from throwing in the towel.

There is, however, a point in time at which it is too late. If you have taught all of the course requirements and done all of the dives and the student has performed adequately throughout that process then you have to certify them. The real problem cases, however, show up early and there is no requirement stating that the course has to be completed.

To pick one example to make this concrete. Last fall I had a student who was... I think he was 12 or 13. His father was a diver and he wanted his boy to be certified. He signed him up for the OW course. During the first lesson it became very clear to me that the boy was far to nervous to go about learning diving. In the first hour I was unable to get him under water at all and he was nervous to the point that when we went in the water with the gear on and were just standing in the shallow side, he vomited from the nerves. I tried to calm him down by starting with swimming, which was no problem for him and then some floating with the gear on but even at that I was unable to get him calm enough to do any diving.

I talked to the father after the dive and we agreed that the boy wasn't ready for it yet. I suggested that he wait a year or two and try it again. He agreed, the shop reimbursed him the money and the course ended after the first pool session.

I've had similar situations as well where someone performed adequately in confined water but was far too intimidated by the conditions in the lake to finish the course. In those cases you have to write a referral so the student can finish the course elsewhere if they want. In the referral I made a note to the receiving instructor that the student was unable to finish the open water dives due to issues with claustrophobia.

R..
 
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