Perdix Ndls

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

it depends on how much you like deep stops or not. My GF-lo is very high by comparison to most people, but I think deep stops are not very smart based on a lot of the research that is being done. Again, you have to understand how the algorithm works, and how you want to adjust it based on your risk tolerance. If you don't understand it, you just start tempting fate. You may get lucky and offgas like AG or JJ, but most of us don't have freakish abilities to get rid of nitrogen
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jax
it depends on how much you like deep stops or not. My GF-lo is very high by comparison to most people, but I think deep stops are not very smart based on a lot of the research that is being done. Again, you have to understand how the algorithm works, and how you want to adjust it based on your risk tolerance. If you don't understand it, you just start tempting fate. You may get lucky and offgas like AG or JJ, but most of us don't have freakish abilities to get rid of nitrogen
I agree with you, and that was what I meant. People should not be playing with their GFs without understanding what that is doing to them on the blind theory that they are being safer with what they are doing.
 
you can't say anything statistically, but if you are going to make that statement, what is the point of gradient factors in the first place? or NDL's for that matter, your Suunto is calculating completely different decompression profiles than your Shearwater and you say it doesn't matter, so why dive a computer at all? Why bother to choose which decompression algorithm makes the most sense to you, etc etc?

Well, my thinking is like this:

A. There is a general consensus that all algorithms (ZHL-16, RGBM, VPM-B) do provide a statistically safe decompression profile at least in the normal range. At very big depths (out of the range of what even most tech divers do) there is some debate about the validity of the results, but probably up until 100m all algorithms are good enough.

B. It was accepted that pure Buhlmann was not safe enough, so we got GF. Something like GFhi 85 was pretty much proven by practice/word of mouth to be safe enough. Some want to be safer and go to 70, some risk more and stay at 85, and probably very few go higher than 85.

C. We though in the past that deep stops are good. Now we start to think they aren't as good as we thought, so GFlow goes from 30 to maybe 40 in some cases. We still think some deep stop and slower ascent curve is good, thus we don't do a 70/70, even if some are even flirting with this idea. But overall part of the thinking that brought deep stops had some logic (even if the research raised some doubts), so as long as we accepted that logic, we find it hard to completely drop it. Even if we know that the whole logic was based on just some theoretical model, which we have no clue yet whether it is correct or not (meaning that we don't yet fully understand the biological events that lead to a DCS hit versus just some inoffensive bubbling in the body).

D. All theoretical models that we currently use do not fully mimic the real events in our body (because, as I have said already, we even don't fully understand them yet). So, the models are close to reality in some ranges, and they get too far from reality out of those ranges. So the same algorithm is safe at some depth and unsafe at other depth. Because of this, in the pure recreational range, Shearwater is confident enough to propose the values of 45/95, 40/85 and 35/75. Those settings will mimic recreational computers (at 45/95 probably close to Aeris/Oceanic, and at 35/75 very close to Suunto). Is this safe enough? Probably so, as many dives are performed like this with good results. Outside of this range, they go to 30/70 and advocating 40/70 in their blogs, based on current research, and leave the tech divers to decide if they will take more risk or not. But the baseline is that 30/70 is good enough in most conditions, as long as you can afford the length of the deco.

So my point was that there are some common values for GF that seem to be good enough for some purposes, even if we don't have accurate data to really prove it. But outside of these well known settings, I see little advantage into playing with the GF. Let's say I'm tired and dehydrated one day. Should I put 30/60 or 40/60 instead of 30/70? Is this enough? Yes, I have extended my deco to compensate for some impossible to measure factor, but I cannot tell whether I've got the needed safety margin or not. It is just something for my peace of mind, but without any hard fact behind it. I could as well leave the computer with the default 30/70 setting and just extend my last stop or my last two stops by a few minutes, as long as gas and water temperature allow it. It is exactly as empirical as changing the GF, achieves the same result, and does exactly the same.

I'm not saying adding safety to compensate for particular conditions is bad. I'm just saying that when you say you adjust your GF according to the requirements of every dive sounds very precious and high tech, while it doesn't really mean so much. You play with some numbers a little bit more, but in the end it isn't much more advanced over just staying a few more minutes in the water at the end. In both cases you just don't know how much is enough and how much more is too much when you diverge from the baseline universally accepted GF values.

Am I missing something?
 
I agree with you, and that was what I meant. People should not be playing with their GFs without understanding what that is doing to them on the blind theory that they are being safer with what they are doing.

This is a very big problem for me: I do understand what the GFs are doing. I even read computer algorithms implementing ZHL16-C, just to fully get the idea. So now I understand the real effect of the GF over the theoretical model of compartments modelled with half time. But this is not helping at all, because even if I can understand mathematics and computer programming, I don't know enough biology. So I cannot really tell (as most of us can't) what the GFs are really really doing to my body made of cells. And seeing scientists disagreeing and arguing over these topics shows me that even knowing the medical part would not be enough.

And all this tells me it is a little futile to try to play too much with the GF values outside of the default widely accepted settings. Changing these values makes me feel like a monkey typing at a computer without a real understanding of the results.

Maybe I just want too much.
 
One more point--having a lower first number in your gradient factor is considered being more conservative. Why exactly is that? I personally changed from the default 30 to 40 thinking that 40 is safer than 30, and I did not make that decision out of the blue. I may even go higher than that for the same reason. I guess I am not sure what people mean by "conservative."
Sorry if this reveals the depth of my ignorance, but I thought GF numbers are the % of the "M-value", a theoretical supersaturation value that shouldn't be exceeded. By using less than 100 (100%) of M you are adding a safety margin. So I thought a GF of 30 (30% of M at the first deco stop) has a higher safety margin than a GF of 40.
Note: I have not taken deco training (yet), and have only done rec diving within NDL, so I'm bracing for my comeuppance... But if I don't ask I'll never learn.
 
orry if this reveals the depth of my ignorance, but I thought GF numbers are the % of the "M-value", a theoretical supersaturation value that shouldn't be exceeded. By using less than 100 (100%) of M you are adding a safety margin. So I thought a GF of 30 (30% of M at the first deco stop) has a higher safety margin than a GF of 40.
The problem is that here are multiple factors involved--being safer with one factor does not mean you are safer with another.

The lower value keeps you farther away from ascending too far too fast, so it is safer in that respect. But think that through. If you never ascend at all, you will never have a problem with ascending too far too fast, but other problems will arise.

Remember that your body is made of many tissues, and they absorb and release nitrogen at different speeds. As you ascend, the faster tissues have become supersaturated and will begin to lose nitrogen, but the slower tissues will continue to absorb it. Slowing or delaying the ascent will keep those faster tissue farther from the M-values, and it is therefore safer in regard to them. At the same time, though, you are raising the nitrogen level in the slower tissues, because they are still on-gassing.

Keeping the faster tissues--which have a higher tolerance for supersaturation--extremely safe may put you at greater risk with the slower tissues.
 
Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. Is the whole question of deep stops is still a matter of religion / controversy?
 
somewhat, though science is quickly removing any validity of deep stops. Neil Pollock has a bunch of papers and discussions on the subject. I think Pod Diver Radio has a couple of interviews where he talks about them
 
somewhat, though science is quickly removing any validity of deep stops. Neil Pollock has a bunch of papers and discussions on the subject. I think Pod Diver Radio has a couple of interviews where he talks about them
The original rationale behind Deep Stops, was to mitigate the chance of a Fast Tissue type II Neuro DCS hit especially with high Helium bottom mixes. Although recent studies are now challenging this idea (i.e. the high diffusivity of Helium coming out of solution early in the ascent, forming free phase bubbles in the Fast Tissues), you should take this into account when deciding to omit Deep Stops: are you willing to risk a rare but possible type II DCS hit for the sake of not late supersaturating/loading your Slow Tissues (per the Conclusion of the NEDU Study)???

The best most prudent compromise to practically apply from the NEDU Study & discussion for those using Deep Stops is to extend out the O2 profile at 6m such that you have a surfacing Gradient Factor of 60% or less (per the readout of a Petrel Computer upon surfacing from your O2 deco stop, or alternatively setting the GF99 function to 60 during the O2 deco stop) --to ensure inert gas elimination from those Slow Tissues. This is especially warranted if you're doing multiple deco dives per day for a week or more -and I would also recommend taking a day-off/break after three consecutive days of multiple deco dives per day to further off gas residual N2 from Slow Tissues, as well as reset CNS/O2 exposure.
 
Last edited:
Sorry if this reveals the depth of my ignorance, but I thought GF numbers are the % of the "M-value", a theoretical supersaturation value that shouldn't be exceeded. By using less than 100 (100%) of M you are adding a safety margin. So I thought a GF of 30 (30% of M at the first deco stop) has a higher safety margin than a GF of 40.
Note: I have not taken deco training (yet), and have only done rec diving within NDL, so I'm bracing for my comeuppance... But if I don't ask I'll never learn.

The already received answers are very nice. If you want more, here are two nice/simple readings on the topic:

Flexible Control of Decompression Stress - Shearwater Research

Review of Deep Stops - Shearwater Research
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom