Ccr Diver From Ohio Died In Ginnie Springs Today...

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It should be pointed out that in the event of a CO2 hit, the idea that there are "sanity breaths" is a fallacy. Not only does it take much longer to recover from a CO2 hit than a couple of breaths, typically, if you have to bail out, you've bailed out for a reason and you're not going back on a compromised loop.

Because of the length of time to recover from a CO2 hit, it's entirely possible that it was hypercapnia related, the diver bailed out, but he was still overcome. CO2 is a pretty insidious thing when diving, and can occur even if you've done everything "right."

@kelemvor I'm sure the instructor was talking about becoming intimately familiar with the unit itself, not the HUD specifically. It really doesn't take very long at all to completely understand what information the HUD is giving you. Smithers code is not rocket surgery. 100 hours is a pretty good number to where the diver should be proficient.
 
My condolences to the friends and family of the deceased.

Ive been keeping up with this thread just for the learning opportunity. I'm not interested in diving rebreather a or tech diving in general. But there are always lessons to learn from other groups.

Now that my kids are older, I'm getting back into regular diving. Rebreathers were cost prohibitive when I trained a decade (or more) ago, so were not covered in Rescue or Dive Master. So my question to the board is, what is my response if I come upon a CCR diver acting odd?
 
Ok, I have a question. I know nothing about rebreathers, but do any of them incorporate a capnometer for end-tidal CO2 monitoring?

A CCR diver monitoring their own CO2 level could intervene hopefully before a downward spiral begins where it's too hard to control their breathing rate and depth.

I don't know if such an instrument could be incorporated into the CCR design or not... seems like it could.
 
Ok, I have a question. I know nothing about rebreathers, but do any of them incorporate a capnometer for end-tidal CO2 monitoring?

A CCR diver monitoring their own CO2 level could intervene hopefully before a downward spiral begins where it's too hard to control their breathing rate and depth.

I don't know if such an instrument could be incorporated into the CCR design or not... seems like it could.

There has been R&D put into this, but thus far there are some issues with them, primarily relating to things such a high humidity environment and the method by which capnometers detect CO2 levels. I won't link to other sites, but it's been hashed over on some rebreather specific forums.

Typically CO2 monitoring has be theoretically derived by using a "temp stick," basically a fancy thermometer that registers changes in the temperature of the scrubber bed. It's functional, usually, but there are certain cases where it doesn't work, and if you rely on it rather than thinking, you can get yourself in trouble. An example would be channeling, where CO2 is bypassing scrubber material. You are rebreathing this CO2, and will have the effects, but your temp stick is still registering normally, you trust this, don't bail out, and die. If you weren't reliant on the temp stick, you would bail out when you recognized the effects, rather than dismissing them until it was to late. It's an extreme case and can largely be mitigated by proper scrubber packing, but there is a potential that still exists.
 
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Because of the length of time to recover from a CO2 hit, it's entirely possible that it was hypercapnia related, the diver bailed out, but he was still overcome.

Theoretically possible, but I don't think that is a viable explanation given the available information. If he had bailed out due to a CO2 hit, or was still experiencing it while on OC, IMHO his resultant rapid breathing rate would or should have been noticeable (perhaps it was just not noted in the report due to other circumstances). Given the length of time/distance mostly drifting (~1,000') he should have gotten control of the situation or, conversely, possibly bottomed out his OC bailout if still rapidly breathing. If his breathing rate did not seem largely abnormal, or his OC bailout still had significant gas in it, then I think hypercapnia would not be at the top of the list of suspected issues IMHO.
Having experienced a bad CO2 hit on OC many, many years ago, I will agree that it is difficult to get your breathing back under control and is an unpleasant experience.
 
I'll preface this by saying if a mod thinks this post should be spun off on a separate thread in the appropriate forum feel free as I don't want to further speculate about this incident.

PCO2: The Dark Matter of Rebreather Diving | DIVER magazine

That said, today I did some light research/reading on rebreathers and specifically CO2, as I do have some serious interest in diving them in the future; however, I came across the above article and series which seemed rather startling to me.

Is it safe to assume the operator is basically flying the unit blind in terms of PPCO2? Despite there being room for improvement in PPO2 sensing it appears the sensing and monitoring of PPCO2 is nearly non existent on today's CCR units. To me it seems as though the really only true indication of CO2 breakthrough is when the diver becomes symptomatic which at that point may be too late depending on the situation. I realize there is protocols and training to deal with this scenario, however, as mentioned in this thread and elsewhere, CO2 hits are no joke and even your best efforts to resolve the problem may not be enough.

I realize this article is also a few years old and perhaps technology has improved and/or this one specific source of information is flawed, but it definitely has me taking pause on the concept of diving closed circuit. Am I being too overly concerned? I always remind myself there's nothing worth dying for down there and while I realize diving in and of itself comes with risk, it would seem diving closed circuit with the "current" technology stacks the odds against you and this can be loosely quantified by accident statistics. I realize extreme sporting activitiy statistics are hard to calculate because there's little data on how often someone is participating in the activity, but it's my understanding CCR diving is safer than base jumping, but not as safe as sky diving and I don't jump out of planes or off cliffs.

I should note that I'm not at all trying to have any influence on CCR divers or argue they are not safe, more so to further discuss the challenges of CO2 and perhaps hopefully learn about manufacturers working on new technologies or implementing current technologies into their units. If what I'm understanding is accurate about CO2 monitoring I think it's grossly lacking in today's public rebreathers. And again I truly do have interest in diving them one day, but if I don't know if I'm breathing CO2 it's hard for me to consider them at this point in time.
 
The end-tidal capnometers that are widely used for EMS are not designed to be immersed in water, exposed to hours of 100% humidity or exposed to high pressures, much less high pressure helium. Scuba rebreathers are a tiny, tiny market compared to every single ambulance and ED bed in the US. So it isn't that it can't be done, it's not yet doable reliably at a reasonable price point.
 
So correct me if I'm wrong,
I don't think you can deduce that from what's been posted. The more I read the accounts, the more I think this was medical. I know a possible heart attack has been ventured, but possibly even a stroke. That would explain the deteriorating mental state, the abject confusion and the swimming in circles. Since I'm not a medical doctor (I fix sick networks), I have no idea
do any of them incorporate a capnometer for end-tidal CO2 monitoring?
Two that I'm aware of. SubGravity just came out with an awesome unit at DEMA. It's pretty sweet, but I can't afford it.
 
It should be pointed out that in the event of a CO2 hit, the idea that there are "sanity breaths" is a fallacy. Not only does it take much longer to recover from a CO2 hit than a couple of breaths, typically, if you have to bail out, you've bailed out for a reason and you're not going back on a compromised loop.

Because of the length of time to recover from a CO2 hit, it's entirely possible that it was hypercapnia related, the diver bailed out, but he was still overcome. CO2 is a pretty insidious thing when diving, and can occur even if you've done everything "right."
It should be pointed out that no one has suggested that sanity breaths are going to resolve a CO2 hit.

In fact it was mentioned that a significant CO2 hit may well result in the diver blowing through all his bailout on the exit - with the result that divers who have experienced a CO2 hit tend to carry lots of bailout gas relative to divers who have not.

I'll preface this by saying if a mod thinks this post should be spun off on a separate thread in the appropriate forum feel free as I don't want to further speculate about this incident.

PCO2: The Dark Matter of Rebreather Diving | DIVER magazine

That said, today I did some light research/reading on rebreathers and specifically CO2, as I do have some serious interest in diving them in the future; however, I came across the above article and series which seemed rather startling to me.

Is it safe to assume the operator is basically flying the unit blind in terms of PPCO2? Despite there being room for improvement in PPO2 sensing it appears the sensing and monitoring of PPCO2 is nearly non existent on today's CCR units. To me it seems as though the really only true indication of CO2 breakthrough is when the diver becomes symptomatic which at that point may be too late depending on the situation. I realize there is protocols and training to deal with this scenario, however, as mentioned in this thread and elsewhere, CO2 hits are no joke and even your best efforts to resolve the problem may not be enough.

I realize this article is also a few years old and perhaps technology has improved and/or this one specific source of information is flawed, but it definitely has me taking pause on the concept of diving closed circuit. Am I being too overly concerned? I always remind myself there's nothing worth dying for down there and while I realize diving in and of itself comes with risk, it would seem diving closed circuit with the "current" technology stacks the odds against you and this can be loosely quantified by accident statistics. I realize extreme sporting activitiy statistics are hard to calculate because there's little data on how often someone is participating in the activity, but it's my understanding CCR diving is safer than base jumping, but not as safe as sky diving and I don't jump out of planes or off cliffs.

I should note that I'm not at all trying to have any influence on CCR divers or argue they are not safe, more so to further discuss the challenges of CO2 and perhaps hopefully learn about manufacturers working on new technologies or implementing current technologies into their units. If what I'm understanding is accurate about CO2 monitoring I think it's grossly lacking in today's public rebreathers. And again I truly do have interest in diving them one day, but if I don't know if I'm breathing CO2 it's hard for me to consider them at this point in time.

As noted by someone above, the technology has so far bene difficult to put in the moist environment of a rebreather.

The focus is however on prevention in terms of ensuring proper maintenance, properly packing the scrubber, and paying close attention to scrubber duration and factors that may shorten it, such as work load and water temperature. Colder temperatures significantly decrease scrubber efficiency, and thus duration.

Some companies also do scrubber tests under controlled conditions to determine scrubber duration under what are pretty conservative conditions, that then produce fairly conservative estimates that can be used for planning purposes.

----

The risks are different with CCR compared to OC and whether the total risk is greater or not probably depends on your diving, as well as on some personal traits of the diver.

CCR has some advantages over OC in terms of reducing decompression relative to OC, and knowing that gas isn't an issue, and that you have much more time to work a problem if needed is a big stress reliever.

A CCR diver can also drop stages with bailout gas that are never actually used on dives that would otherwise require those stages to be used (and replaced) on each and every dive, and if you're going to be diving in a system for awhile, pre-placing the bailout gas can greatly reduce the set up required for a series of dives, compared to OC stage diving and that reduction in set up dives, reduces some overall risk.

On the other hand, if you are not meticulous about maintenance, don't bother to fully understand how the unit works, don't fully understand the possible failure modes, don't conservatively plan for possible failures, and don't have the self discipline to turn a dive early, abort a dive, or call a dive on the surface at the last minute if the unit has a failure, then rebreather diving just isn't something you should be doing.

Two people I knew personally have died on rebreathers because they dove with known flaws. In that regard, their deaths were 100% preventable, yet they show as CCR deaths in the statistics. Do you blame the rebreather and conclude that CCR is just dangerous, or do you conclude that perhaps the potentially increased danger lies in how some people choose to dive the rebreather?

A related issue is that many divers are doing dives on CCR that they would never do on OC due to the logistics involved, so in one respect CCR may be more dangerous because it makes longer, deeper dives more practical, and thus more common. In other words, if more divers are doing longer, deeper dives that are more stressful and or carry greater risk in general, as those dives are more practical on CCR, then increased accident rates on CCR may be due in part to the greater risk overall on those dives, regardless of whether they were one on OC or CCR.
 
Whilst Brent (thank you) reported that the scrubber was dry post recovery: has there been any reporting to indicate if the Optima in question was fitted with a solid state Micropore ExtendAir Cartridge (EAC) or if it had granular absorbent in a refillable scrubber?

The failure modes of a rebreather are well known, all trainee rebreather divers are taught how to deal with them all. Some of those modes lead on to the limits of diving a rebreather.
Ken, If this were actually true then why have there been multiple fatalities on eCCRs with 2 x current limited cells?
See Dual Sensor Failure at Lake Mead National Recreation Area - TEKDiveUSA

You should know that Brad Horn is closely associated (maybe an employee?) of Deep Life (or one of its sister companies) and that they manufacture a rebreather which is best known for being vapourware
Ken, a thread discussing the fatality of a rebreather diver is neither the time nor appropriate place to discuss your issues with the links I posted. But in the interest of correcting your sledge: Yes, I am a Director of OSEL, a company that manufacturers, sells and ships the rebreathers designed, tested and certified as Functionally Safe to EN61508 SIL3 by Deep Life. All public knowledge and irrelevant to the publishing of links that can help those interested learn more about rebreathers in general.

If you have a problem with the testing done by Deep Life feel free to provide readers with a better source of rebreather testing!

with an excessive emphasis on the supposed failings of all the other rebreathers out there. That list is part of the FUD and often subject to some dispute as to what happened. Reading it you would decide that RBs are all deadly and only the APOC is safe.
The Apoc amongst the other units designed by DL is certified as Functionally Safe. Their tracking of accidents is required for that certification: so they know what to avoid doing. It is neither OSELs nor DLs fault that other rebreathers have not achieved this certification standard nor do not ship as standard with basic diver safety features like a BOV, crown retaining strap or full flood recovery etc etc

Find me a more accurate and up to date rebreather fatality accident list and I will reference that. Heck I even listed Andrew Fock's paper and last time I checked it was missing 30 odd known rebreather fatalities for just the short period that it covers.

So correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like the diver completely bailed from the CCR as the report states "no reg in mouth" "attempts to put reg back in mouth and purge".
Without a retaining strap on a DSV it can just fall out when the rebreather diver goes unconscious. No different to a reg falling out if you were to go unconscious OC or during bailout and which may or may not have occurred in this instance.

Example of a retaining strap rEvo safety mouthpiece (bite-piece with straps)

A lot of the links on that site are bad (404 error) or corrupt "This video cannot be played because the file is corrupt". If you have some contact with the "Deep Life Design Team" company, could you mention it to them? It seems there may be some interesting information there despite the conflict of interest concern mentioned by Ken Gordon. The details may help laymen such as myself better understand what's involved in rebreather accidents, so I think it's relevant to the thread at least.
Anyone can email them especially if it is related to an accident as they have a dedicated email for that.

Will contact you offline ref the 404 error links so I can pass the info on. I wasn't aware of any video link on the DL site.

For understanding rebreather accidents your probably better off focussing on the QinetiQ and NEDU accident investigation reporting.

Ok, I have a question. I know nothing about rebreathers, but do any of them incorporate a capnometer for end-tidal CO2 monitoring?
A CCR diver monitoring their own CO2 level could intervene hopefully before a downward spiral begins where it's too hard to control their breathing rate and depth.
I don't know if such an instrument could be incorporated into the CCR design or not... seems like it could.
You can have end-tidal CO2 monitoring on a rebreather provided the rebreather meets a number of design criteria but it isn't a capnometer (yet). Caveat, OSEL haven't yet shipped the elecs for their rebreather with this capability but the rebreather and end-tidal CO2 monitoring has been test dived and CE certified with it fully functioning.

See:
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_files/Fault_Study_CO2_Bypass_110314.pdf
Open Safety Equipment Ltd
Open Safety Equipment Ltd added 11 new... - Open Safety Equipment Ltd | Facebook

Also have a read of:
http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/2311...on-dioxide-monitoring-in-a-rebreather-circuit
http://www.lac-du-bourget.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Mitchell-SJ-Aviat-Space-Environ-Med-2007.pdf
Rebreather Myths - Divers Deserve The Truth | SDI | TDI | ERDI
The five-minute prebreathe in evaluating carbon dioxide absorption in a closed-circuit rebreather: a randomized single-blind study.
http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/2556...divers-on-surfacing-after-decompression-dives
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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