Ccr Diver From Ohio Died In Ginnie Springs Today...

[boulderjohn]

The IUCRR explained in a thread on Cave Divers Forum a few years ago that they were advised by counsel to stop publishing reports. They send the reports to the police department, and you will need to get them via a Freedom of Information request.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

My take on it is this. I'm considering getting a RB in 2017 or 2018. I need to make the decision based on very limited (and apparently closely guarded) information about rebreathers. Closely guarded because all the necessary information on what can happen etc is only presented to divers after they've made the decision and shelled out a truckload of cash for at LEAST a class and a rental unit if not purchasing a unit up front.

If they are offered in your area, rebreather demos are a good option. It may help you decide whether a particular model works for you, although the experience is pretty limited.

If you're ok with spending a little money up front and doing some reading there are three books I'd recommend:

1. Jeff Bozanic's "Mastering Rebreathers: Understanding Rebreathers" is a very detailed and almost scholarly book that covers various types of rebreathers and the operating principles of all of the commonly encountered types. It's probably the best over all source of information to get an understanding of the different operating principles and the pros and cons of different types. It's a long book however and a bit of a technical read.

2. Mel Clark's "Rebreathers Simplifed is a much more basic and just the facts you need to know approach to the topic but she also covers several different models

3. Jill Heinerth's "The Basics of Rebreather Diving" is an easier read than Jeff's book, but still covers the subject in a very good level of detail. It's a nice balance between the two books above, and if you were only going to get one book, I'd recommend you get Jill's.

Still, I strongly recommend Jeff's book as it is a superb preparation for any rebreather class you will ultimately take. If you take your time reading it, and work on understanding the content, you'll be way ahead when it comes to a class and any training manual that's included.

One or more of the above books are also likely to be required or at least recommended as supplementary texts in a rebreather class.

-----

There are also some useful links available, including:

http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/How_Rebreathers_Kill_People.pdf

and;

google "RB_Fatal_Accident_Database" to pull up an Excel spreadsheet on rebreather accidents. You'll need to take some of it with a grain of salt given the authors basic assumptions and some educated guesses, but overall it's a good primer on how people die on rebreathers and the various models and failures involved.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There was a very informative, first hand account posted on CDF today that adds a great deal of detail into what occurred and should eliminate much of the unfounded speculation.

Cave Diver's Forum

My understanding also is that an autopsy was scheduled for today (Wednesday), which may be important to determining a cause given no obvious issues with the rebreather.

 

[chillyinCanada]

DAAquamaster, please quote the entire text for those of us that are not members of that site. Thank you for your efforts.

 

[kelemvor]

Thanks for the crosslink, @DA Aquamaster . Very informative and sobering given the amount of cave diving experience Diver B had.

I presume with just over 1 year on the o2ptima, that he wouldn't really be considered "new" or "still learning" the unit, right? I ask out of ignorance. I have read there is a very steep learning curve and seen several post about hundreds of hours being needed on a unit to get to know the HUD light signals for example.

It sounds to me like there is no standard method for towing another distressed diver with a scooter. Maybe some agency could develop some sort of "scooter rescue" procedure to help in an event such as this? If possible, it may be a good way to help prevent other tragedies. Especially since Brent explicitly states it's not the first or even second time he's seen such a situation.


Also, thank you very much for the links and book information. With the costs of rebreathers and training being what they are, those books are a reasonable first step.

 

[kelemvor]

Hopefully this doesn't violate any policies.. if so, I'm sure a mod will do the needful and delete. Here's the info for those with no account on cdf:

By now everyone has read that the family does not wish to have the divers name released, and so it shall be, but I want to provide our community with some facts at hand and perhaps help with the healing process for those who knew him. I was "on-scene" during the recovery process so what you are reading is going to be factual. Lets start by calling the team, Diver A and Diver B with Diver B being the one who did not survive.
Diver B was a long time cave diver, being certified Full Cave around the 97 time frame and continued his training in other disciplines such as stage, DPV, TRIMIX and CCR on the Optima. He had over 500 cave dives both here in the US and Mexico. Not sure of the number of dives on the Optima but his cert date was 02/15.

The dive plan was not at all complex and it was one that both team members had done before on several occasions. Divers scootered to 2150 ( in Ginnie ) dropped scooters and swam into Sweet Surprise to 3100ish ( Mainland Jump ) and at this point the dive was turned. Team spent just a few minutes at 3100 doing the usual "sightsee" stuff and then turned. Diver A leading out and B following. It would APPEAR that the events leading up to Diver B's passing, started on the exit out of Sweet Surprise. Diver A noticed that Diver B's movements ( trim, use of light, ect. ) were somewhat erratic but at this point, nothing that we all haven't experienced at some point. Back at the scotter pick-up point, it became totally obvious that Diver B was in "some kind" of distress. He had a lot of difficulty clipping the scooter on and needed help. Bouyancy was bad and motor skills were not as they should be. Team managed to scooter for 100-150 feet and Diver B indicated he could not manage the scooter and wanted to swim. In reality, no swimming was done at all, just drifting. Several hundred feet later, another attempt was made to scooter but it was also unsuccessful. At this point in the dive, Diver B had, for the most part. lost the ability to swim and was just drifting. There were numerous contacts with both ceiling and floor. Diver A could not do much more than attempt to guide the team out, plus he had both scooters. I would say that keeping the scooters was the right move because it was entirely possible that Diver B might overcome whatever the problem was and then the scooters would be a valuable tool. Diver A also is a long time cave diver and driving and towing a scooter would have been no big deal. At the 1000 foot marker ( maple leaf ) Diver B rolled off the gold line and down into the "pit" area near the Maple Leaf causing a total silt out of that area. It was about this time that Ted McCoy and his buddy were passing by that area and stopped and assisted in getting Diver B out of the pit and back on the gold line. It appears that by this time, Diver B had lost all capability to swim so attempts were made to tow/pull him out. As it was told to me, in just a very short period of time, it became obvious that Diver B had passed. Diver B was upside down with no reg in his mouth and even after numerous attempts to put the reg back in and purge and so on, nothing was going to help save Diver B. Diver B was clipped to the line and all other divers surfaced and a recovery team was formed and the body extraction was completed. We were allowed by the local law enforcement to do a "very short" inspection of all the gear and also to download the data from the Sherwater, which BTW, showed nothing out of the ordinary. No water in the canister either. The gear has been sent to a law enforcement facility for additional inspection and that's all I know about that.

I have been diving and teaching cave for close to 28 years and, unfortunately, have been thru this before, both in the water and surface support. A lot has been posted about the recovery and, of course, there are those who would have done it differently and have been very vocal about it. You people need to get a life! Doing a recovery is never a "planned event" and everyone involved did the very best they could so give it a rest. There are so many people to thank but as always, in the heat of the battle, you tend to overlook folks but believe me it's not deliberate. On the surface, Rose Meadows from Ginnie kept the surface support crew, ( including me ) under control and Ted and his crew deserve our gratitude for what they did and let us not forget Diver A. Losing a buddy will stay with you FOREVER.

I have nothing else to add about this terrible day. I hope the facts presented help family, friends and our dive community.
I will not make any public responses to questions/comments on this forum but I will answer all PM's should I get any. As some of you know, I live here and dive here and teach here, so I'm at the dive sites on a regular basis should anyone wish to talk.

Brent Booth
NSS 241
IANTD 38

 

[Brad_Horn]

google "RB_Fatal_Accident_Database" to pull up an Excel spreadsheet on rebreather accidents. You'll need to take some of it with a grain of salt given the authors basic assumptions and some educated guesses, but overall it's a good primer on how people die on rebreathers and the various models and failures involved.

Careful with the google as there are a few very out of date copies of that accident list that are being hosted. Better going to the source each time Deep Life Design Team: databases and analysis of rebreather accident data

Some more links of interest for those that want to educate themselves about how rebreathers work:
Deep Life Design Team: Design Submission for Open Revolution
Deep Life Design Team: Selected Design Validation Reports for Open Revolution Rebreathers
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/9902/a550047.pdf?sequence=1
and more generally because it is an excellent source Rubicon Foundation
https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/files/Tech_Proceedings_Feb2010.pdf
Scuba Diving Medical Safety Advice — DAN | Divers Alert Network
https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/...UHMSProceedings/2014_UHMS_Proceedings_WEB.pdf
How Does Your Rebreather Scrubber Handle the Deep?
and more generally because of the depth of his expertise rebreathers John Clarke Online
http://dhmjournal.com/files/Fock-Rebreather_deaths.pdf
http://spums.org.au/sites/default/files/DHM Vol43 No2 compact.pdf
and for the novice perhaps best of all Richard Pyle's learners guide LGRB

 

[KenGordon]

Careful with the google as there are a few very out of date copies of that accident list that are being hosted. Better going to the source each time Deep Life Design Team: databases and analysis of rebreather accident data

Some more links of interest for those that want to educate themselves about how rebreathers work:
Deep Life Design Team: Design Submission for Open Revolution
Deep Life Design Team: Selected Design Validation Reports for Open Revolution Rebreathers
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/9902/a550047.pdf?sequence=1
and more generally because it is an excellent source Rubicon Foundation
https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/files/Tech_Proceedings_Feb2010.pdf
Scuba Diving Medical Safety Advice — DAN | Divers Alert Network
https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/...UHMSProceedings/2014_UHMS_Proceedings_WEB.pdf
How Does Your Rebreather Scrubber Handle the Deep?
and more generally because of the depth of his expertise rebreathers John Clarke Online
http://dhmjournal.com/files/Fock-Rebreather_deaths.pdf
http://spums.org.au/sites/default/files/DHM Vol43 No2 compact.pdf
and for the novice perhaps best of all Richard Pyle's learners guide LGRB

You should know that Brad Horn is closely associated (maybe an employee?) of Deep Life (or one of its sister companies) and that they manufacture a rebreather which is best known for being vapourware with an excessive emphasis on the supposed failings of all the other rebreathers out there. That list is part of the FUD and often subject to some dispute as to what happened. Reading it you would decide that RBs are all deadly and only the APOC is safe.

There are many threads on many forums chronicaling the history of these projects for those that want to know more.

 

[The Chairman]

After reading the account, it gives a bit more of the dive information but doesn't contradict what's been posted here already. Imagine that! I do now know the name of the individual, but since it hasn't been released publicly, I'll sit on it. It adds nothing to what we're discussing here.

 

[CuzzA]

So correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like the diver completely bailed from the CCR as the report states "no reg in mouth" "attempts to put reg back in mouth and purge". Can you go back to the loop once it has been removed?

It sounds like one of two things was the cause of this accident.

1) The diver experienced a malfunction/failure of the unit.
2) The diver made an error while preparing the unit.

Does that sound right?

And for those of us that don't have first hand knowledge of CCR's (but are interested), hypothetically speaking and given what we know, is hypercapnia the most logical explanation for the cause of death?

I realize this is a very serious condition? Other than bailing out, what else can a diver do to survive? I know full face masks aren't very popular (expensive), but could using one, especially one that allows swapping regs, make a difference? For example, could you swap the loop for an OC reg and even if you pass out from co2 atleast you wouldn't drown.

If these are silly question, please forgive my ignorance about CCR's. While I have a little knowledge about how they operate I obviously don't know all there is to know.