Build the Perfect Certification Agency

[DaleC]

I don't see a problem with those divers either, my wife would probably be one of them if she ever chose to dive. The only problem is when we lump everyone together without differentiating their interests/limits. To a diver who acts independently, the vacation diver lacks skill in many areas. But to a vacation diver, they are ok in their setting.

I'm all for personal responsibility. But shouldn't that also extend to the agency for monitoring the quality of instruction they promote and the level of skill in divers they certify. How did that lady get an OW card without having a clue how to assemble her equipment? The current cop out is that they demonstrated the skill once and the C card is really just a license to learn. I figure it should mean you are competent enough to dive.

I'm not poo pooing all instructors. I have met some very good ones. But I have also met some very poor ones and it just seems luck of the draw which one that will be. The cop out to that one is to say divers should shop around and pick instruction wisely but non divers really have no clue what they are looking for. Most form a sort of hero worship for their first instructor (even if they are poor) until later experience shows the deficit they may have been exposed to.

 

[Edward3c]

I agree if it was a perfect world. But you know the saying "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

When I got certified, if the shop offered me two different OW classes:
A) PADI OW that would be about what it is now for $350.00
B) A PADI (or other) dive course that was everything above but also included peak buoyancy, advanced drills, plan and execute your own independent dives with a buddy and with confidence, etc. and a bunch of other stuff for lets say $1000, or even $1200,.

This is the UK situation, PADI or SSI (commercial operator) v BSAC, SAA or ScotSAC (Members' Club). The majority of new UK based divers only think of diving on holiday, where the commercial operators are. It's a few days of training and they're qualified. Those that then want to dive UK waters are often 'encouraged' by PADI/SSI to stick with them. It's only when they meet Members' club divers they realise, maybe the PADI/SSI route isn't the one for UK diving.

On another forum there is a thread from someone in this situation - should they pay for a quick PADI/SSI certification or wait to complete a club one. They are having difficulty in understanding why club based training takes longer to get the ticket. Why is it important for every diver to be able to rescue their buddy, on holiday the guide/instructor will do that.

 

[RJP]

I don't see a problem with those divers either, my wife would probably be one of them if she ever chose to dive. The only problem is when we lump everyone together without differentiating their interests/limits. To a diver who acts independently, the vacation diver lacks skill in many areas. But to a vacation diver, they are ok in their setting.

I'm all for personal responsibility. But shouldn't that also extend to the agency for monitoring the quality of instruction they promote and the level of skill in divers they certify. How did that lady get an OW card without having a clue how to assemble her equipment? The current cop out is that they demonstrated the skill once and the C card is really just a license to learn. I figure it should mean you are competent enough to dive.

I'm not poo pooing all instructors. I have met some very good ones. But I have also met some very poor ones and it just seems luck of the draw which one that will be. The cop out to that one is to say divers should shop around and pick instruction wisely but non divers really have no clue what they are looking for. Most form a sort of hero worship for their first instructor (even if they are poor) until later experience shows the deficit they may have been exposed to.

I don't think it's entirely fair to lay all the blame for crappy/lazy divers squarely at the feet of their instructor and the agency. It's very easy for someone to do well in the class, have fine skills, and then just slip into bad habits or simply ignore what they learned - and demonstrated - in class.

If you had a car accident tomorrow, how much blame should be assigned to the person who taught you how to drive? Are any grammatical errors in your post above the fault of your high school English teacher... the school system?

Learning is a "team" sport.

It's very easy to sit at home and read SB and get caught up in the noise level created by the fewer than a dozen or so posters who are responsible for ~70% or so of the "most instructors who aren't me or from my agency suck" post volume.

I have to believe that constantly marinating in the negativity, criticism, accident reports, finger pointing, and constant griping that can infect this "community" must have a negative impact on many people. Whether the diver who comes here for info only to find out that he (and his instructor) is an idiot and crappy diver, or the good diver or instructor who becomes more and more critical and disdainful of other divers and instructors. Can't be good.

 

[Hawkwood]

...

I have to believe that constantly marinating in the negativity, criticism, accident reports, finger pointing, and constant griping that can infect this "community" must have a negative impact on many people. Whether the diver who comes here for info only to find out that he (and his instructor) is an idiot and crappy diver, or the good diver or instructor who becomes more and more critical and disdainful of other divers and instructors. Can't be good.

Too bad those "fewer than a dozen or so posters" don't realize this.

 

[DaleC]

Uh... Yes it's not black and white but if someone just graduated from a driving school and couldn't turn the car on I would blame the school.

But anyway, this is a thread about how one would design a "perfect" agency (a crazy idea I know). In it one would presume people would discuss where they see short comings in order to discuss what they would choose to improve. If that bugs someone why participate? We say it's up to the individual to shop around and make wise choices but then poo poo anyone who looks at what happens in dive instruction in a less than flattering manner?

What's wrong with thinking there should be accountability on the part of the instructor as well as the new diver? And is it scaring new divers by telling them the agency they think represents them actually represents the instructor? That was quite an eye opener for me when I found out.. post instruction. It might help some understand how that relationship works. Is it wrong to suggest that training might be offered too fast for some divers; that you need a period of actual diving assimilation between courses? That the solution to every problem isn't "take another course"?

What I like about SB is that it isn't an agency sponsored back patting club. You can have real discussions here from all sides and the wheat usually gets sorted from the chaff.

Dive instruction today could be seen as mostly ok partly because it is mostly ok, and partly because humans have a good ability to adapt to deficits, and many people who have negative experiences simply drop out of the activity. I would prefer it to be the former, thank gosh for the second, and to actually address the latter.

 

[scubadada]

Hi Ray,

Very thoughtful attempt at the Ideal Dive Agency. Your training structure and progression appears to try to improve and enhance the current PADI (or many of the other agencies) process. I ended up seeing it like this:

PADI	RJP-IDEA
	Try Scuba
Discover Scuba
	Discover Scuba
Scuba Diver
	Scuba Diver
Open Water
Advanced Open Water
	Open Water
Rescue
Master Scuba Diver	Advanced Open Water

The RJP-IDEA system significantly expands the base of the training pyramid, aimed at where many of the customers are thought to be. At the same time, the proposed system does not allow for independent diving until significantly farther along the training path at the OW certification. The potential shortcomings of the PADI system have been discussed at great length but, at least, in theory, one is able to dive independently at the OW stage and with more freedom at the AOW stage. I wonder how this difference would be perceived? Though there may be more opportunities at the lower end of the training range, it appears that it may require increased time, energy, motivation, and maybe, money, to become an independent diver. This may not be a bad thing.

Your post was thought provoking, I enjoyed it very much, thanks.

Good diving, Craig

 

[RJP]

The potential shortcomings of the PADI system have been discussed at great length but, at least, in theory, one is able to dive independently at the OW stage and with more freedom at the AOW stage. I wonder how this difference would be perceived? Though there may be more opportunities at the lower end of the training range, it appears that it may require increased time, energy, motivation, and maybe, money, to become an independent diver. This may not be a bad thing.

I should have made it clear that I would still position the "IDEA Open Water" course as the best option for people who really want to "become a diver" from the outset. The two "introductory" steps would be great options for the people who either aren't sure at the outset... or genuinely just want to "try diving" as the ultimate goal. I think the availability of more attractive and "meatier" intro programs would have three benefits:

1. Attract more people who are currently on the fence from cost, fear, time, or commitment standpoints by offering them an option that is more accessible AND provides a "real" exposure to diving and the necessary skills. I think doing so will actually get many people to take the next step of "upgrading" to OW
2. Allow the new OW course to be more in-depth as well as something for people to aspire to do; currently it's seen as something to "get through" in order to go diving
3. Provide an offering with a price structure that makes more sense. Current approach is essentially Discover Scuba is free... Open Water is ~$800 all-in.

 

[scubadada]

I should have made it clear that I would still position the "IDEA Open Water" course as the best option for people who really want to "become a diver" from the outset. The two "introductory" steps would be great options for the people who either aren't sure at the outset... or genuinely just want to "try diving" as the ultimate goal. I think the availability of more attractive and "meatier" intro programs would have three benefits:

1. Attract more people who are currently on the fence from cost, fear, time, or commitment standpoints by offering them an option that is more accessible AND provides a "real" exposure to diving and the necessary skills. I think doing so will actually get many people to take the next step of "upgrading" to OW
2. Allow the new OW course to be more in-depth as well as something for people to aspire to do; currently it's seen as something to "get through" in order to go diving
3. Provide an offering with a price structure that makes more sense. Current approach is essentially Discover Scuba is free... Open Water is ~$800 all-in.

The IDEA OW course would be a good one and reasonably likely to accomplish the goal of producing divers with the ability to execute safe, independent, dives

 

[boulderjohn]

I just thought I should point out for the sake of avoiding confusion that IDEA is already the name of a scuba training agency. It is a member of the RSTC.

 

[RJP]

I just thought I should point out for the sake of avoiding confusion that IDEA is already the name of a scuba training agency. It is a member of the RSTC.

Damn. Well at least I saved $40 on a trademark search.

:d