Sidemount gear configuration practices - 4 questions

[gearhound]

From a training agency perspective it's fascinating to read these posts and see the massive inconsistency in current side mount gear configurations...long hose on the left, long hose on the right, long hose stuffed, long hose wrapped, short hose too long, too short, on the necklace, not on the necklace, etc.

We took a slightly different take on it, in designing a comprehensive side mount system and a training program at the same time. So every UTD instructor teaches the same configuration in the same way. It's a system that works with single or double side mount, is completely compatible with single or double back mount long hose configurations, and it maintains the most critical part of the system, which is always be able to donate a working regulator on a long hose from your mouth.

Not to hijack this thread, but I think the more important question than "how is the gear is set up," is the question of how do we train in the real world of team diving so if someone does need gas, regardless of where the tanks are mounted, they know how to get it. Personally, I'm not comfortable diving in a team where half the time a diver is on a short hosed necklace. That necklace was designed for backup use, not primary use.

Just my two cents.

Jeff

Jeff, you'll see inconsistencies because of the very media that you are replying on, the internet. Too many people are trying to learn from the internet and are picking up info piecemeal. They'll take a tidbit from here and another from there and not absorb a whole system. I think if you take a course from the GoSidemount instructors or numerous instructors in cave country in Mexico or their disciples, you'll find a "standard". I'm sure you would find the same from reputable instructors in Florida cave country.

As for who varies from what's "standard" the most, wouldn't you say it's UTD? Sidemount diving in Florida and Mexico, I have never personally seen another diver on site using the Manifold, meaning that it is not the norm. I don't see it locally either. I don't think you can take the moral high ground of what's "standard" if you yourself are varying so far from it.

As for not being comfortable diving with a diver that is on their short hose, I'd be more uncomfortable diving with someone that doesn't have the ability to yank on a long hose on a breakaway clip on their right shoulder. I think that we've already discussed that it is part of your basic 6 and part of any s-drill to clip and unclip your long hose. So the muscle memory is already there. And I would be very uncomfortable taking the manifolded system into true sidemount caves, and I don't think you'll find very many explorers that would. (And yes, I have studied the system and held one in my hands)

 

[Jeff_S]

Gearhound,

Yes, that's my point, that there is no standard, so we created one, along with agency-wide training, within our community of instructors and students, and it integrates with the standard back gas config.

On the long hose question, the Z-System is set up exactly like back gas doubles, so the long hose is always in your mouth and that's the donatable regulator. Then you (the donor) go to the necklace. Both second stages are both always on. The clipping and unclipping in Basic-6 is a drill to be able to stow the long hose in the event it's not needed (right side failure). The only time we would ever donate something that's clipped is in the MX Rebreathrer config (but please everyone, that's not for this thread).

As side mount moves away from solo diving and more into the hands of team divers, the trap, as I see it, is a zero-viz out-of-gas scenario. If your muscle memory is from backgas doubles, you find your teammate, tap tap tap on the reg that's in his mouth, and take it. He goes to his necklace, and you sort out your problems. I don't know how to resolve the situation where you go tap tap tap and the donor is breathing a necklace.

In any case, I found the first 20 posts in this thread really interesting, since everyone is creating their own system, unlike DIR, which is based in consistency. With back gas doubles, we could dive with pretty much anyone trained by one of the DIR agencies or instructors and everything was pretty consistent.

I look forward to seeing where it all goes in the next few years.

Cheers,

Jeff

 

[tursiops]

I look forward to seeing where it all goes in the next few years.

I look forward to UTD finally admitting that the idea isn't going anywhere.
Appealing to muscle memory as a reason to go backwards to having a manifold behind you suggests we'd still be diving J-valves...when it was hard to breath you just pulled the ring down. Now THAT was muscle memory! And since an increasing number of folks are skipping the BM and going right to SM, the muscle memory isn't even there.

 

[raftingtigger]

I'm strongly considering SM because I don't want my valves behind me where I find it difficult to reach. In front/side I can see them. My use is OW, primarily recreational diving, with maybe a little extended range thrown in for good measure. I also dive with a wide variety of divers of differing skill levels and equipment. Therefore I have to put up with some differences in equipment to continue to dive with the people I enjoy. One big one is the donateable regulator is often NOT the one in the diver's mouth.

I did find that wearing a standard single long-hose GUE/DIR style BM configuration with an AL80 SM on the left worked seamlessly for me. I took my bungeed "alternate" from the BM and put it on the SM. Both had SPGs and my BCD and Drysuit LPIs were left on the BM. This has several advantages to me in my environment, namely it let me use my wing unaltered and left my right side free for my camera equipment. The disadvantage is I can't reach my BM valve, but again I am no-stop diving. I may end up going full SM, but probably will stop with the 1/2 BM, 1/2 SM that worked so well the few times I've tried it.

 

[tursiops]

Folks may be too wrought up over which side the long hose should be on and whether you need it at all. If you are in a mixed team, you need it. And if you need it, the training is to take the one in your mouth, which half the time will not be your long hose. The solution is two long hoses, one on each side. Once you have them coiled nicely and stuffed in the bands on your cylinders, you don't even know they are there. And if your left-side reg is a left-feed reg, there are no hoses going behind your head or getting in the way...just bring the left (long hose) straight up from the tank to a 70 or 90-deg fitting on the reg. Same on the right.

if you are NOT in a mixed team, you can still dive your rig this way, it is just less likely you'll need to donate.

 

[kwinter]

Folks may be too wrought up over which side the long hose should be on and whether you need it at all. If you are in a mixed team, you need it. And if you need it, the training is to take the one in your mouth, which half the time will not be your long hose. The solution is two long hoses, one on each side. Once you have them coiled nicely and stuffed in the bands on your cylinders, you don't even know they are there. And if your left-side reg is a left-feed reg, there are no hoses going behind your head or getting in the way...just bring the left (long hose) straight up from the tank to a 70 or 90-deg fitting on the reg. Same on the right.

if you are NOT in a mixed team, you can still dive your rig this way, it is just less likely you'll need to donate.

Agreed +1

 

[DevonDiver]

1. Second stage regulator hose lengths – do you dive a long hose on one side, and a short hose (e.g. on a bungee necklace) on the other? If so, on which side do you place your long hose, and what ‘long’ hose length do you use? Or, do you dive 2 long hoses?

Right side (as worn) - 7' long hose
Left side (as worn) -36" short hose, bungee necklace (pull-away) *can air share to a limited degree as an initial response.

2. Second stage hose adapters - do you use an adapter on your second stage hoses, such as a 70 degree angle adapter, a 90 degree angle adapter, or a 360 degree swivel adapter? If so, do you use them on both, or only one hose?

70 degree angle adaptor on both hoses. I don't like them with backmount, but find them very effective on sidemount.

3. Cylinder attachment methods – do you use a standard deco / stage bottle rigging kit, or something else? If something else, what do you use for the top at bottom attachment points? Do you use a fixed bottom attachment (e.g. a metal hose clamp), or do you use a cam band?

Top - Continuous bungee. I've tried ring-bungee, old-school and two-piece. Deco-stage bottle rigging isn't sidemount - except if used with ring-bungee. No bungee = not sidemount IMHO. I don't find ring-bungee an effective method for AL cylinders in the tropics.

Bottom - I use hose clamp, with nylon cover. For students, I use cam-bands to allow in-water adjustment/refinement. I recommend hose clamps thereafter - this is 'beginning with the end in mind', as I believe cam-bands pose greater entrapment risk in confined/overhead environments.

4. Cylinder valve position – do you position the aperture (opening) of your valves so that they face into your body? Away from your body? At a 90 degree angle to your body (e.g. facing in, toward the opposing cylinder valve opening)?

Valves start horizontal/outwards. They rotate upwards (regulator in) when AL tanks get buoyant and lower attachment point is moved to front of hips.

 

[karstdvr]

1. Second stage regulator hose lengths – do you dive a long hose on one side, and a short hose (e.g. on a bungee necklace) on the other? If so, on which side do you place your long hose, and what ‘long’ hose length do you use? Or, do you dive 2 long hoses?

Only use short hoses,because I enter sidemount situtations in caves

2. Second stage hose adapters - do you use an adapter on your second stage hoses, such as a 70 degree angle adapter, a 90 degree angle adapter, or a 360 degree swivel adapter? If so, do you use them on both, or only one hose?

Never will use 360 degree swivels,have had them fail

3. Cylinder attachment methods – do you use a standard deco / stage bottle rigging kit, or something else? If something else, what do you use for the top at bottom attachment points? Do you use a fixed bottom attachment (e.g. a metal hose clamp), or do you use a cam band?

I have been sidemounting for over 10 years,so I use the old school method that was very popular before commerical rigs came along. I use carrbiner attachment at the bottom of the tank,with hose clamps,and I created a carrbiner holder for hose clamps. At the top I use bungees only. I sold all my cam bands,too many failures.

4. Cylinder valve position – do you position the aperture (opening) of your valves so that they face into your body? Away from your body? At a 90 degree angle to your body (e.g. facing in, toward the opposing cylinder valve opening)?

Directly toward me

 

[Colliam7]

From a training agency perspective it's fascinating to read these posts and see the massive inconsistency in current side mount gear configurations...long hose on the left, long hose on the right, long hose stuffed, long hose wrapped, short hose too long, too short, on the necklace, not on the necklace, etc.

I agree, there is inconsistency. Put another way, there is not (yet) a universal 'standard', and a variety of configurations are considered to be equally acceptable 'options'. And, the primary point of starting this thread was to gauge the diversity of those options - the impetus for my post came out of a comment that Effervescence made in Bob's thread, along the lines of 'why isn't XXX a standard?" In that case it was in reference to hip-clipping AL cylinders vs using cylinder weights, but it could have been a variety of specific issues.

Not to hijack this thread, but I think the more important question than "how is the gear is set up," is the question of how do we train in the real world of team diving so if someone does need gas, regardless of where the tanks are mounted, they know how to get it. Personally, I'm not comfortable diving in a team where half the time a diver is on a short hosed necklace. That necklace was designed for backup use, not primary use.

The 'how do we train' question, particularly in the context of team diving, would be a hijack. While I am not sure it is more important, or of equal importance, or of lesser importance, I agree that it is a nonetheless important question. But, I was specifically staying away from that, because I think Bob (NWGratefulDiver) had addressed that issue in his thread (or, at least made a good faith effort to do so, notwithstanding some of the interesting sidebars that developed). But, you make a very good point in this comment - is the right long hose / left bungeed necklace essentially a transfer from backmount, manifolded doubles diving? Does it really make sense for independent doubles (be they sidemount or backmount)? Or, is it habit? If the principle is to donate a working regulator, then are you really doing that if you donate your long hose at a point where you have been breathing from the short hose regulator for the past 5 minutes? I confess, that (long hose right, bungeed necklace left) is how I dive my SM cylinders. But, I came to SM from BM. And, I dive with a number of BM divers, and maintaining that configuration offers some sense of team consistency. They at least recognize my hose configuration. And, after starting that way, I have tried diving 5' hoses on both sides, diving a long hose on the left, and a short hose on the right, and ultimately come back to where I started.

Jeff, you'll see inconsistencies because of the very media that you are replying on, the internet. . . . I think if you take a course from the GoSidemount instructors or numerous instructors in cave country in Mexico or their disciples, you'll find a "standard". I'm sure you would find the same from reputable instructors in Florida cave country.

Also a very good point. There are some 'standards' out there but many are local / regional, and they are not necessarily consistent. And, just because a certain configuration is preached by a messiah and various disciples does not mean it is the best, or the only, approach. So, if someone goes to Mexico (or Florida, or wherever) and does a SM course, and the instructors are persuasively evangelical in proselytizing their approach, that diver may well come away wondering why everyone else is doing it wrong, and why 'whatever they learned' isn't the standard. That doesn't make the approach they learned right, or wrong, it is just how they were indoctrinated. I confess again, my configuration is generally consistent with what I learned from the person I originally observed diving a SM configuration, and then later trained with. And, he has achieved a reasonable level of recognition as knowledgeable in sidemount diving. And, I respect his knowledge and experience. But, I continue to tweak, and experiment to find what works best for me in my diving environment (open water / ocean diving, not caves), because that is part of the appeal (to me) of sidemount - being able to experiment.

THANKS to all who have posted so far.

And, to all who haven't posted a response to the 4 questions, please continue to contribute. I am working to maintain a running summary of the responses, to post after an appropriate interval (two weeks).

---------- Post added March 20th, 2014 at 08:08 AM ----------

Never will use 360 degree swivels,have had them fail

OK, fair enough, I understand you don't care for 360 degree swivels. Do you use ANY adapter (70 degree, 90 degree)?

---------- Post added March 20th, 2014 at 08:46 AM ----------

The solution is two long hoses, one on each side ... just bring the left (long hose) straight up from the tank to a 70 or 90-deg fitting on the reg. Same on the right.

Agreed +1

So, are you (both) saying that this is the configuration you use for diving SM?

 

[SWAMPY459]

Jeff, you'll see inconsistencies because of the very media that you are replying on, the internet. Too many people are trying to learn from the internet

What I really find distateful is (and not just talking about this post, about most every thread on scubaboard) are those who come to a place designed to exchange information about diving and feel the need to endlessly vomit the same post over and over again "you need to take a class!"

I see it as a group of scuba professionals taking the stance "you must pay me for our permission to engage in X activity"

I must take a sidemount course to dive sidemount?

Let's say I already dive sidemount just fine and I'm having issues with one particular clip coming undone or something... I'm supposed to pay hundreds of dollars to take a three day course to get the answer to one question?

\\//\\//hatever! (said with a vallley girl accent)

If your opinion is that there is nothing valuable to be learned from these forums then PLEASE LEAVE. Go teach or take a class, better yet, go diving, whatever but if you don't want to give and get good information ... JUST LEAVE US HERE TO EXCHANGE OUR WORTHLESS DRIBBLE AND STOP POSTING.