Sidemount gear configuration practices - 4 questions

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Thread's getting interesting because I'd thought all along that having a short hose on the left and long on the right with both coming from the right of the neck was 'standard' practice. :D

Yea Progen that is why these forums are pretty cool there are all kinds of reasons for doing things all kinds of different ways ... I learned to sidemount the same way :))
 
OK, I am following up on this description to make sure I understand.
1. I use a 7 foot hose on the left side. It goes over the back of my neck and feeds the reg with a 90 from the right side. It has a bungee necklace.
The long hose on the left I understand. And, you are saying you use a 90 degree adapter on that - left - hose? And, that (left) long hose second stage is also on a bungee necklace?
The right tank has a 20 inch octo hose. It stays under the inner tube bands until I use it.
So, no adapter on the short hose? And, you deploy the hose from under the inner tube bands, and restow it after using it each time?
4. Valves are 90 degrees away from my body.
Help me understand this a little better. Are you saying the valve openings face outward - i.e. toward the sides of your body? Or are you saying the valve handles face outward? I am not sure I understand how this looks.
 
Sidemount is just a rig selection. A cave diver who's too adamant about it, one way or the other, I'd be wary of. Shows too much immaturity to be safe around. My cavern instructor has been a cave diver for decades. He dives doubles. When the occasion calls for it, he dives sidemount. That's a rational attitude. Sheck Exley dove mostly doubles. I understand he sometimes dove sidemount, I assume when the occasion called for it. The hard lessons learned from cave fatalities are summarized in the cardinal rules we all learn: rule of 3rds, etc. There is nothing there that say what rig (doubles/sidemount) to use. Unless I'm mistaken, sidemount v. doubles has not yet been identified as a causal factor of dive fatality.

I don't foresee diving anything but sidemount in the foreseeable future, for the many positives touted by some, and despite some of its potential drawbacks noted by others which are duly noted. I'm comfortable with the rig configuration, open water or overhead environment. When an occasion arises where doubles is clearly preferred, then that's what it would be.

You are right and this is a skills issue. This gas level has happened,and fortunately without the OOA scenario. This being said I don't want to be caught in a CTJ moment because I discover the person I am diving with is complacent with their gas management. The key point is that the attitude of manifolded doubles has not completely eluded the sidemount configuration transition,such that gas for a safe exit can completely come from the long hose. In overhead community there is no standardized point at which to make a gas switch,so there is no guarantee what gas levels there is in each tank if you have an emergency,other than trusting your dive buddy. The prevailing attitude that has existed is 1/3 for the dive,1/3 for the exit,and the other 1/3 belongs to my dive buddy,but this isn't concrete axiom with sidemount divers because at a given time,more gas can have been expended from the long hose tank (aka your gas for a safe exit). I am not arguing on behalf of 2 long hoses versus 1 long/short hose,but playing devil's advocate,and having people realize in predive planning you need to know what exactly your buddy will be doing with YOUR tank.


Can we count on this? Majority of sidemount divers at the tech level bought a sidemount harness and hardware,and presto they are a sidemount diver. This goes back to what I was saying,many dive traditional manifolded doubles scenario,but with tanks on their side,but many of the gas nuances have eluded them.
 
Sidemount is just a rig selection. A cave diver who's too adamant about it, one way or the other, I'd be wary of. Shows too much immaturity to be safe around. My cavern instructor has been a cave diver for decades. He dives doubles. When the occasion calls for it, he dives sidemount. That's a rational attitude. Sheck Exley dove mostly doubles. I understand he sometimes dove sidemount, I assume when the occasion called for it. The hard lessons learned from cave fatalities are summarized in the cardinal rules we all learn: rule of 3rds, etc. There is nothing there that say what rig (doubles/sidemount) to use. Unless I'm mistaken, sidemount v. doubles has not yet been identified as a causal factor of dive fatality.

.

You are right sidemount and backmount are tools,and both have their place. A well rounded cave diver is one that masters both,for example,sidemount is the best choice for bedding planes,and backmount for fissure crack systems,so in a way the best choice of configuration has been defined. Your comment about being" adamant shows a lack of maturity",is something you can only decide. I too have been cave diving for 20 years,and made approx. 1500 cave dives,and have been cave diving in sidemount for many years. There is an issue that is present that perhaps you can discuss with your cavern instructor. There are many cave divers buying sidemount rigs and using sidemount configuration,but the problems is they use the same Hogarthian configuration of long hose/short,and this can be problematic when entering sidemount cave. So if being adamant is immature, so be it,but too bad somebody wasn't adamant about proper weighing for new sidemount divers when negotiating restrictions,then we may have less two fatalities. If you talk to the people close to Sheck,he primarily dove backmount,because sidemount hadn't really evolved until later,but as most will tell you he really hated small cave. There were so many caves that his maps ended and he said that walled out,but later people returned,and have pushed well past original exploration. For example,Shecks map will show you Slimmy Slough only went 1100ft,but others came back and tripled the distance. Even if sidemount was readily available at that time,it was doubtful he would have pushed small cave. Good luck on your cavern certification and hope you enjoy many dives.
 
Last edited:
Colliam7,

I apologize for not providing a clear description.

Yes, I use a 90 on the reg attached to left hose. That reg has a bungee necklace. The hose is routed behind my head. I find it to be a comfortable arrangement.

There is no adapter on the short hose. I have thought of clipping the reg to a shoulder D ring but I don’t find it much of a hassle to reach back and stow it by pulling on the bottom of the loop.

I messed up the wording about the valves. The valve handles are perpendicular to my body and the handles are pointed outward.

I probably should have mentioned that I do weight the AL80s that I use to prevent them from tipping up. I am also a big fan of Dive Rite Nomad weight plate that comes in handy when using a 7mm farmer john. It is used in conjunction with a Dive Rite stainless back plate and 32 pound wing.

Blessings!

ShootnStr8
 
Thank you for the comments. I did quote you hence I was responding, in part, to what you said, but the intent was more general. Someone who has completed 1500 cave dives clearly knows what he (or she) is doing, and I would listen carefully to you say. I spoke to less experienced cave divers after my cavern certification who were "adamant" about sidemounting and that attitude put me off (and I like sidemount diving) by seeming to know everything and coming across as narrow-minded. The most important thing I learned from cavern training: the myriad things that can go wrong and how important "awareness" is. That requires a rational, open-minded, observant mind, quite contrary to what some of the sidemount divers were saying.

The following is just my own take on the hose length issue and why I'm following this thread closely. I find the discussion of hose sizes and rigging is interesting and relevant because I too considered the question -- two long hoses v. one short/one long (two short I didn't consider) -- after my certification, especially in relation to diving with my buddies who are mostly backmount. With my instructor we did OOA drills with blacked out masks following a guideline using touch communication. Once I was the OOA lead diver breathing from his donated 7 foot hose, another time I was the one donating my primary second stage attached to a 7 foot hose. We were doing single file and a 7 foot hose was clearly useful in giving us space to move. But in one of the drills I did not tuck in the 7 foot hose well after an OOA drill and it got entangled. So, yes, having two of them being a potential entanglement hazard is not just an academic what-if for me.

With my backmount buddies, I want to tell them in OOA I'll donate the one in my mouth (a simple protocol) but that doesn't work since every 400 psi or so I switch between my primary and backup second stages to balance the gas in the two cylinders. It's a no-brainer to fully utilize redundancy from independent cylinders, as well as conducive to trim/buoyancy control. So, when an OOA situation arises, my primary may be clipped to my shoulder D-ring and I'm breathing from my secondary (shouldn't even call it "secondary" or "backup" since it's not when gas balancing) and I'd be breathing from the short hose whose 2nd stage is attached to a necklace. Hence a panicked OOA buddy ripping the 2nd stage from my mouth wouldn't quite work well due to the necklace. That's why I'm considering not using a necklace but using a snapbolt (as in my primary 2nd stage) that attaches the secondary 2nd stage to a D-ring when not in use. When the OOA buddy is not panicked and trying to rip out my 2nd stage from my mouth, I would calmly unclip my primary 2nd stage and donate it to my buddy before engaging in controlled ascent. Anyhow, my 2 cents to the different options and their trade-offs.

You are right sidemount and backmount are tools,and both have their place. A well rounded cave diver is one that masters both,for example,sidemount is the best choice for bedding planes,and backmount for fissure crack systems,so in a way the best choice of configuration has been defined. Your comment about being" adamant shows a lack of maturity",is something you can only decide. I too have been cave diving for 20 years,and made approx. 1500 cave dives,and have been cave diving in sidemount for many years. There is an issue that is present that perhaps you can discuss with your cavern instructor. There are many cave divers buying sidemount rigs and using sidemount configuration,but the problems is they use the same Hogarthian configuration of long hose/short,and this can be problematic when entering sidemount cave. So if being adamant is immature, so be it,but too bad somebody wasn't adamant about proper weighing for new sidemount divers when negotiating restrictions,then we may have less two fatalities. If you talk to the people close to Sheck,he primarily dove backmount,because sidemount hadn't really evolved until later,but as most will tell you he really hated small cave. There were so many caves that his maps ended and he said that walled out,but later people returned,and have pushed well past original exploration. For example,Shecks map will show you Slimmy Slough only went 1100ft,but others came back and tripled the distance. Even if sidemount was readily available at that time,it was doubtful he would have pushed small cave. Good luck on your cavern certification and hope you enjoy many dives.
 
T.

The following is just my own take on the hose length issue and why I'm following this thread closely. I find the discussion of hose sizes and rigging is interesting and relevant because I too considered the question -- two long hoses v. one short/one long (two short I didn't consider) -- after my certification, especially in relation to diving with my buddies who are mostly backmount. With my instructor we did OOA drills with blacked out masks following a guideline using touch communication. Once I was the OOA lead diver breathing from his donated 7 foot hose, another time I was the one donating my primary second stage attached to a 7 foot hose. We were doing single file and a 7 foot hose was clearly useful in giving us space to move. But in one of the drills I did not tuck in the 7 foot hose well after an OOA drill and it got entangled. So, yes, having two of them being a potential entanglement hazard is not just an academic what-if for me.

.

Great comment and observations!
 
Gearhound,

Yes, that's my point, that there is no standard, so we created one, along with agency-wide training, within our community of instructors and students, and it integrates with the standard back gas config.

On the long hose question, the Z-System is set up exactly like back gas doubles, so the long hose is always in your mouth and that's the donatable regulator. Then you (the donor) go to the necklace. Both second stages are both always on. The clipping and unclipping in Basic-6 is a drill to be able to stow the long hose in the event it's not needed (right side failure). The only time we would ever donate something that's clipped is in the MX Rebreathrer config (but please everyone, that's not for this thread).

As side mount moves away from solo diving and more into the hands of team divers, the trap, as I see it, is a zero-viz out-of-gas scenario. If your muscle memory is from backgas doubles, you find your teammate, tap tap tap on the reg that's in his mouth, and take it. He goes to his necklace, and you sort out your problems. I don't know how to resolve the situation where you go tap tap tap and the donor is breathing a necklace.

In any case, I found the first 20 posts in this thread really interesting, since everyone is creating their own system, unlike DIR, which is based in consistency. With back gas doubles, we could dive with pretty much anyone trained by one of the DIR agencies or instructors and everything was pretty consistent.

I look forward to seeing where it all goes in the next few years.

Cheers,

Jeff

In an out of air situation you swap to your other regulator and close the cylinder you are breathing from. That's the point behind having a redundant system. Donate air is definitely not the first option. In theory, the gas left should be enough to abort the dive, that's why we use at least 1/3 as reserve. should it not be the case, Once you are on your spare cylinder you have time! there are many options, e.g. try to fix the problem or feather the free flowing cylinder.
On the other side, if something fails in the z-system I would wonder how to save as much air as possible while being able to breath it.
That's jus my 2 cents.
 
So, when an OOA situation arises, my primary may be clipped to my shoulder D-ring and I'm breathing from my secondary... and I'd be breathing from the short hose whose 2nd stage is attached to a necklace. Hence a panicked OOA buddy ripping the 2nd stage from my mouth wouldn't quite work well due to the necklace....

IMHO, both regulators should be 'pull-free' or 'break-away'. Traditional (zip-tie secure bungee to the regulator mouthpiece) bungee necklace isn't optimal at all for sidemount. There are advantages to using a 'looped' bungee necklace that permits the regulator to come free. See this article: How To Tie A Regulator Bungee Necklace

I use a longer (40-42") hose for the short-hose (on the left side, as worn). This permits some initial gas-sharing capability, even if the OOA diver rips the wrong hose (from the mouth, rather than the long hose wherever it is). In all cases I have rehearsed thus far, it provides initial air - whilst transfer to the long-hose for egress/exit can be managed once the initial drama is resolved and both divers are breathing.

Because the long-hose will be clipped off at stages of the dive, the bolt-snap needs to be break-away, not cut-away. This permits not only a very timely donation when required, but also mitigates against the bolt-snap jamming.
 
figured this could get revived a bit

40" hose on left bottle, routed down through a retainer then back up to 90* adapter on a lefty reg. Clipped off to left D-ring from the hose so I can still breath on it with it clipped off. LPI hose follows suit, with a 6" HP hose going down.
7' on right bottle when needed, 40" in recreational, routed like a paperclip, down, up, back down on the inside, then back up to mouth. 90* adapter, with clip on right shoulder D-ring. Drysuit hose always on, and runs down to stow when not being used *always leave a LPI hose on all bottles except O2 for IP checks before dives as well as a backup in case of regulator failure on either post. 6" HP hose going down.

I donate whichever hose is in my mouth at the time to deliver a guaranteed working 2nd stage that is already free of water. If the short hose gets donated, after things get less exciting and calmed down, the switch and deployment of long hose occurs for single file exit.

I use Hog D2's for primary bottles because I don't care for turret first stages on primary bottles. Started out diving D1's but didn't like how the turrets kept moving while underwater, especially since all of my hoses route downwards. I wish Chris would come out with something like Apeks Tek3 1st stages because those would be perfect mainly with the HP going outwards instead of inwards, but I can't justify spending the money on them and they never come up used.

Currently using ring bungees most of time so knobs down, first stages out. Key to this is to actually add at least one if not two quick links on the chest side of the strap to help pull that ring up farther instead of having the the extra links on the back side which just keep the valve way too low. When using loop bungees the tanks swap sides with knobs kind of out and firsts down ish and in ish.

Bolt snaps are tied on but since I can reach them while clipped off I don't see a need to go to a zip tie so they are break off.
 

Back
Top Bottom