Sidemount gear configuration practices - 4 questions

[shoredivr]

1. Second stage regulator hose lengths – do you dive a long hose on one side, and a short hose (e.g. on a bungee necklace) on the other? If so, on which side do you place your long hose, and what ‘long’ hose length do you use? Or, do you dive 2 long hoses? Left side short hose 30", right side long hose 6'

2. Second stage hose adapters - do you use an adapter on your second stage hoses, such as a 70 degree angle adapter, a 90 degree angle adapter, or a 360 degree swivel adapter? If so, do you use them on both, or only one hose?
360* on both

3. Cylinder attachment methods – do you use a standard deco / stage bottle rigging kit, or something else? If something else, what do you use for the top at bottom attachment points? Do you use a fixed bottom attachment (e.g. a metal hose clamp), or do you use a cam band? Paracord and boltsnaps on the tank necks, cam band, triglide and cord with knot stop and boltsnaps on tank

4. Cylinder valve position – do you position the aperture (opening) of your valves so that they face into your body? Away from your body? At a 90 degree angle to your body (e.g. facing in, toward the opposing cylinder valve opening)?
Valves face into my body

SPGs pointing up and angled in so they are flat against my drysuit, 6" hoses
I dive steel tanks, and also aluminum tanks in primarily cold water.

Looking forward to the compilation!

 

[SWAMPY459]

I'm a new sidemount diver and still changing things around, but so far ....

1. Second stage regulator hose lengths – do you dive a long hose on one side, and a short hose (e.g. on a bungee necklace) on the other? If so, on which side do you place your long hose, and what ‘long’ hose length do you use? Or, do you dive 2 long hoses?

I have a long hose bungied on my right tank, and a short hose that goes up, around my neck and on a necklace on my left tank. it's long enough to share, at least in open water. not sure of the size but its a standard open water "octopus hose"

2. Second stage hose adapters - do you use an adapter on your second stage hoses, such as a 70 degree angle adapter, a 90 degree angle adapter, or a 360 degree swivel adapter? If so, do you use them on both, or only one hose?

I have a 110 (is that the same as a 70?) because I had it laying around. I bought a 90 for the other. I would have put both on 90's but just happened to already have the 110

3. Cylinder attachment methods – do you use a standard deco / stage bottle rigging kit, or something else? If something else, what do you use for the top at bottom attachment points? Do you use a fixed bottom attachment (e.g. a metal hose clamp), or do you use a cam band?

cam band with a carabiner on the bottom, leash with a bolt snap on the top

4. Cylinder valve position – do you position the aperture (opening) of your valves so that they face into your body? Away from your body? At a 90 degree angle to your body (e.g. facing in, toward the opposing cylinder valve opening)?

valves pointed in, handles up/down

 

[victorzamora]

is the right long hose / left bungeed necklace essentially a transfer from backmount, manifolded doubles diving? Does it really make sense for independent doubles (be they sidemount or backmount)? Or, is it habit?

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which side it comes off of. However, there are good reasons for longhose on the right and bungeed on the left. If you have a short hose on the right, the "appropriate" hose routing would be straight up into an angled adapter of some kind (fixed or 360*). This, however, would make it very difficult (if not impossible) to share that hose at all. Also, since it wouldn't be behind you at any point....dropping it would mean it falling to the end of its hose. Routing the short hose from the left side allows the hose to come across your body. Dropping it would mean it falling infront of you. Also, it could be used temporarily for OOA situations. Using the breakaway-bungee method, that hose can be donated (if ripped out or if longhose is caught) and the hose that was behind you can be used to give some distance between the two divers. This can be fixed by deploying the longhose and giving it to the OOA diver. That's how I see it....so there ARE valid arguments for short hose left, long hose right. I haven't seen any the other way except for a shorter hose and less hose behind you.

If the principle is to donate a working regulator, then are you really doing that if you donate your long hose at a point where you have been breathing from the short hose regulator for the past 5 minutes? I confess, that (long hose right, bungeed necklace left) is how I dive my SM cylinders. But, I came to SM from BM. And, I dive with a number of BM divers, and maintaining that configuration offers some sense of team consistency. They at least recognize my hose configuration. And, after starting that way, I have tried diving 5' hoses on both sides, diving a long hose on the left, and a short hose on the right, and ultimately come back to where I started.

The principle isn't JUST a working regulator. You also want to donate a hose that gives "breathing room" (pardon the pun) between the two divers. If you donated a 6" hose, it wouldn't be very comfortable even in mild OW conditions. The long hose, both for backmount AND sidemount, came from overhead training. The 7' longhose maintains its benefit in a cave regardless of where you place the tanks. A longhose (5' or 7') is beneficial in OW diving as it allows both divers to maintain more comfortable positioning while proceeding with the dive. As to the "working regulator" principle, I think that one issue with using the bungeed octo as ONLY the backup is that it never gets used. In any silty/muddy/sandy/salty situation, repetetive dives in sub-premium conditions can cause a bad buildup. Yeah, you're donating a good reg....but you have no guarantee your octo breathes at all, much less WELL. With independent doubles, you're may not donate a hose that you were LITERALLY just breathing off of.....but you had been on that dive, no more than a few minutes prior. That, to me, is much more comforting than one reg potentially being COMPLETELY inoperable. OOA divers, even well trained tech/cave divers can freak out when they hit that last breath. You donate your long hose, switch to your bungee and find it's not giving you gas but your buddy won't give up your longhose....what do you do? With independent tanks, you breathe off of both consistently. Also, independent tanks makes you MUCH more likely to get an equivalent backup. How often do you see divers buying cheap 2nd stages because they're "just octos and they'll never get used." I've seen more than one tech diver do that.....and I've seen a TON of longhose divers do that.

There are some 'standards' out there but many are local / regional, and they are not necessarily consistent.

I'm an Edd-diver. There's no doubt in my mind. I love his way of doing things. However, I have been diving with students of Steve Martin, Steve Bogaerts, Jim Wyatt, Bill Routh, Steve Cushman, and others. I've been diving with a diver taught SM by Edd, in a modified Razor, who is also GUE trained. I have seen minor variations in how things are done with all of them....but the overlying theme is consistent. If things go sideways, hand me a reg with a LONG hose attached to it. Other than the German "let's switch tanks around" method, I don't care what your flavor of emergency procedures is. Let's discuss it just before the dive (like you should do with any new buddy) to get on the same page, and I'm good to go. If you hand me a breathing, working second stage when I'm OOA....I'm NOT going to turn it down because it's on your left post. I'm NOT going to turn it down because it doesn't have a swivel on it. I'm NOT going to turn it down because it's 5' instead of 7' or any other reason we're discussin in here....or even because it's attached to manifolded backmounted doubles! Other than the UTD manifold, all SM is completely consistent in every way but the most minor of details.

Having said that, I'm glad you started this thread and find the results very interesting. I like hearing how AND WHY others do things. If you have a "why" behind your "how" then I'm in support of you diving that way. If your "why"s fail the logic test, or you're regurgitating data then I have a problem with you. Not what you're doing, but with YOU personally. (general "you" statements all around, no personal attacks)

As far as classes vs learning on your own, there are too many people on here that stage-sling random tanks and look like a total cluster-junk in every step of their diving that truly embarasses me as a SM diver. Taking a class (with a good instructor) gets you to a neat, streamlined, efficient setup MUCH quicker than doing it on your own. It will teach you all of the questions you need to ask, and should teach you a variety of answers and end with the instructor's personal preferences. Edd teaches weighted AL80s, but he mentioned moving them and why he dislikes it. I don't mind moving my 80s but I don't want to have to weight them. I differ from my instructor, and I have a reason for it. However, it has taken me (and will continue to take me) many pool dives and "simple" OW dives to get my AL80 setup exactly how I want it. But, between my experience and my mentorship from three great SM instructors I'm capable of answering a lot of basic questions myself....the kinds of questions I see posted on this board FAR too often. Disclaimer: I never took the class officially, just took cave in SM.

 

[gearhound]

What I really find distateful is (and not just talking about this post, about most every thread on scubaboard) are those who come to a place designed to exchange information about diving and feel the need to endlessly vomit the same post over and over again "you need to take a class!"

I see it as a group of scuba professionals taking the stance "you must pay me for our permission to engage in X activity"

I must take a sidemount course to dive sidemount?

Let's say I already dive sidemount just fine and I'm having issues with one particular clip coming undone or something... I'm supposed to pay hundreds of dollars to take a three day course to get the answer to one question?

\\//\\//hatever! (said with a vallley girl accent)

If your opinion is that there is nothing valuable to be learned from these forums then PLEASE LEAVE. Go teach or take a class, better yet, go diving, whatever but if you don't want to give and get good information ... JUST LEAVE US HERE TO EXCHANGE OUR WORTHLESS DRIBBLE AND STOP POSTING.

My post was directed at Jeff. He was commenting on how there was no consistency and that only UTD had that. I didn't believe he was comparing apples to apples. If you get on an internet forum, there is going to be hundreds of different opinions just because of the nature of the beast.

My viewpoint comes from taking cave and tec training. Fundemental rule in cave diving is proper training. Part of the training is accident analysis where we go over what mistakes have been made in the past and the consequences. Theres a whole separate section on Scubaboard dealing with Accidents and Incidents. Could some of these have been prevented with proper training? I've also had the unenviable task of leading the search and recovery for the body of a missing diver. We've also read about the incident just this past Christmas at Eagles Nest of a father and son that figured they didn't need proper training. So forgive me if I err on the side of caution. I've seen some bad sidemount divers out there destroying the cave. I saw one guy with a back inflate bcd rolled up and bungeed on his back like a sausage just bashing everything as he went along.

But I have no problem if you want to self teach yourself. Some people are more qualified to do it that others. But it's been my experience that those that have the wherewithal to teach themselves usually don't need to ask questions. They can observe and follow the fundamental principals of diving and figure it out themselves. You're entitled to your opinion that training isn't necessary, just as I'm entitled to mine that it is safer and can provide a shortcut. Just this, if you're not willing to pay for something, don't throw a tantrum if someone isn't willing give it away for free.

 

[raftingtigger]

in my opinion, it doesn't really matter which side it comes off of. However, there are good reasons for longhose on the right and bungeed on the left. If you have a short hose on the right, the "appropriate" hose routing would be straight up into an angled adapter of some kind (fixed or 360*). This, however, would make it very difficult (if not impossible) to share that hose at all. Also, since it wouldn't be behind you at any point....dropping it would mean it falling to the end of its hose. Routing the short hose from the left side allows the hose to come across your body. Dropping it would mean it falling infront of you. Also, it could be used temporarily for ooa situations. Using the breakaway-bungee method, that hose can be donated (if ripped out or if longhose is caught) and the hose that was behind you can be used to give some distance between the two divers. This can be fixed by deploying the longhose and giving it to the ooa diver. That's how i see it....so there are valid arguments for short hose left, long hose right. I haven't seen any the other way except for a shorter hose and less hose behind you.


The principle isn't just a working regulator. You also want to donate a hose that gives "breathing room" (pardon the pun) between the two divers. If you donated a 6" hose, it wouldn't be very comfortable even in mild ow conditions. The long hose, both for backmount and sidemount, came from overhead training. The 7' longhose maintains its benefit in a cave regardless of where you place the tanks. A longhose (5' or 7') is beneficial in ow diving as it allows both divers to maintain more comfortable positioning while proceeding with the dive. As to the "working regulator" principle, i think that one issue with using the bungeed octo as only the backup is that it never gets used. In any silty/muddy/sandy/salty situation, repetetive dives in sub-premium conditions can cause a bad buildup. Yeah, you're donating a good reg....but you have no guarantee your octo breathes at all, much less well. With independent doubles, you're may not donate a hose that you were literally just breathing off of.....but you had been on that dive, no more than a few minutes prior. That, to me, is much more comforting than one reg potentially being completely inoperable. Ooa divers, even well trained tech/cave divers can freak out when they hit that last breath. You donate your long hose, switch to your bungee and find it's not giving you gas but your buddy won't give up your longhose....what do you do? With independent tanks, you breathe off of both consistently. Also, independent tanks makes you much more likely to get an equivalent backup. How often do you see divers buying cheap 2nd stages because they're "just octos and they'll never get used." i've seen more than one tech diver do that.....and i've seen a ton of longhose divers do that.

like, like

 

[Mikko Ilari Laakkonen]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which side it comes off of. However, there are good reasons for longhose on the right and bungeed on the left. If you have a short hose on the right, the "appropriate" hose routing would be straight up into an angled adapter of some kind (fixed or 360*). This, however, would make it very difficult (if not impossible) to share that hose at all. Also, since it wouldn't be behind you at any point....dropping it would mean it falling to the end of its hose. Routing the short hose from the left side allows the hose to come across your body. Dropping it would mean it falling infront of you. Also, it could be used temporarily for OOA situations. Using the breakaway-bungee method, that hose can be donated (if ripped out or if longhose is caught) and the hose that was behind you can be used to give some distance between the two divers. This can be fixed by deploying the longhose and giving it to the OOA diver. That's how I see it....so there ARE valid arguments for short hose left, long hose right. I haven't seen any the other way except for a shorter hose and less hose behind you.

Yay this is probably a first valid argument for not keeping longleft and shortright that I've seen. Still even if this was unsolved I would feel that benefits of longleft would outweight this disadvantage. The problem has also been solved so that the short hose doesn't go straight up. It goes either down the tank and back up or like I usually do, to your armpit and back up from there. This gives a little "adjustability" to hose length, improves streamlining even further and allows a little bit longer hose that easily allows temporary donation.

- Mikko Laakkonen -

I love diving and teaching others to dive.

 

[karstdvr]

. I didn't believe he was comparing apples to apples. If you get on an internet forum, there is going to be hundreds of different opinions just because of the nature of the beast.

.

You are right if you get on an internet forum there will 100s different opinions,especially Scubaboard. One weakness I find with Scubaboard sidemount forum is this is a tech forum,not really recreational. Since recreational sidemount has growing,it isn't the same as what a cave diver or wreck diver would do,because it is sidemount configuration versus true sidemounting. The recreational sidemount divers want somewhere to go,so here is the best choice,so often threads are a mish-mash of recreational and technical opinions that are apples-oranges. Where I don't mind recreational sidemounting,I do miss the opportunity to read real tech oriented discussions,and wish the mods would consider a subforum in the recreational area.

 

[raftingtigger]

The recreational sidemount divers want somewhere to go,so here is the best choice,so often threads are a mish-mash of recreational and technical opinions that are apples-oranges.

BINGO. I have no interest in penetration dives of any kind, but am intrigued by SM. I have experimented with stage mounted vs. a SM stage and MUCH prefer the SM. Personally, I can sift through the info and remove the parts that are penetration required and make adjustments for mixed teams (especially pure rec trained paired with tec trained), but I can see where the techies want just tec answers. Nothing would prevent the rec SM diver from visiting the tec side, but they might get a better discussion on their needs if there is a SM rec subforum.

 

[SWAMPY459]

Edd teaches weighted AL80s, but he mentioned moving them and why he dislikes it.

Would you mind expounding on this just a bit?

 

[victorzamora]

Raftingtigger: I don't think there are many (maybe any) things in sidemount that are too particular to overhead. The argument can be made that sidemount of anykind is specifically an overhead thing for very low cave sections, but aside from that.....I can't think of anything cave specific. All of my decisions are mostly for cave diving, but that's because that's most of my diving nowadays. However, there's nothing I do that's not 100% valid for rec divers. Rec divers stilil need to maintain good tank trim (if for no other reason than personal pride), good body trim, clean/neat hose routing, and be able to share air. There may be no need for a 7' hose to allow in-line no-viz cave exits. However, I've yet to see a 5' hose route as well as a 7' hose in SM. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I haven't seen it.

So, going to my setup, what decision did I make that is detrimental in any way to rec/ow diving? What optimizations could be made FOR rec/ow diving? Just because I don't see them doesn't mean they're not there....I probably haven't thought of them yet.

---------- Post added March 21st, 2014 at 01:11 PM ----------

Would you mind expounding on this just a bit?

Message me on this, I don't want to derail the thread TOO much