Open Water Certifications – Cold vs Warm

[Hawkwood]

We also encourage our students to do their OW in a dry suit if they are doing it locally. Last weekend, two students elected not to do so....they certainly noticed the 5C (41F) water. Their choice however. One could not complete as she got too cold.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I wonder if the 'giving up' primarily stems from the 'difficulty', or simply a perception that the diving has a low return-on-investment in respect of enjoyment versus discomfort/ investment.

Diving in cold water is significantly more costly than warm-water; in terms of equipment (esp. exposure protection), training for that equipment (i.e. dry suit courses) and generally higher diving/boat fees.

Many people don't enjoy 'brain freeze' or 'stiff fingers' - a minority accept it in return for the chance to dive regularly at home, but many won't - they'll defer diving to warm-water on their vacation.

Being cold or uncomfortable isn't "harder" or "more difficult" diving... not in the respect of necessary environmentally-demanded skill development etc...

I think it really depends on a lot of different things. People who live in colder climes have to make a decision ... dive regularly in local conditions, or occasionally when on vacation. Each choice has its drawbacks ... and each is going to depend on why the person wants to get into diving in the first place. I think most people who elect to dive locally don't perceive it as a low return-on-investment situation ... particularly those who live in areas that offer a relative abundance of things to see ... which encompasses most cold-water coastal areas, I think. Those who dive in fresh-water locales, such as lakes and quarries don't have the abundance of marine life to satisfy their itch to dive ... but many find other areas of enjoyment that make the investment worthwhile. Not everyone dives for the same reasons, after all ... just talk to the folks who live in cave country, or in the Great Lakes region, for example. They don't at all dive for the same reasons as those who dive regularly in tropical or more temperate coastal areas. Return on investment depends a great deal in what aspect of diving interests you.

As for cost ... it costs me more to take a two or three week vacation to someplace like Indonesia than it does to dive locally all year long. Both are worth the investment, but for different reasons.

Water temperature isn't as big a deal as some here make it out to be ... if you're dressed for it. That's a matter of making an investment in equipment, certainly ... it's also a matter of making an investment in learning to use your equipment properly, and choosing the correct equipment. Almost any decent hood will prevent "brain freeze" ... I purchase a $30 hood annually, as a "Christmas present" to myself. Hoods are warmest when they're not worn out from use, and a decent hood will usually last for a few hundred dives before it needs replacing. Diving with gloves is more difficult, but most people don't have much trouble adapting ... humans are amazingly adaptable when they decide to be. The nice thing is that once you get used to manipulating your gear with gloves on, taking them off makes doing so seem ridiculously easy.

And yes, some people are more susceptible to cold than others. Some people just don't have any desire dive in cold water ... or find anything desireable about the notion of diving in cold water. On the other hand, if you live in an area where warm water is a plane ticket away, then the drawback is that you aren't going to be diving very often ... and that usually means your skills will never really progress beyond a certain point. For probably the majority, that's quite OK. For those who get the diving bug in a bad way, whatever it takes to get that next diving "fix" is worth the investment. Some will find reasons to move closer to their environment of choice ... others will learn how to adapt to the environment at hand.

I think, for most, it's less a matter of discomfort or degree of difficulty as it is a matter of priorities. For most local divers in my area, the complaints I hear aren't about cold water, it's about plankton blooms or storm conditions that mess up visibility ... or big tidal exchanges that make the best dive sites temporarily off-limits due to current. For those who come here and want to adapt from the warm-water conditions they were used to, the most common complaint I hear amounts to "I never had this problem diving in ________ (fill in whatever tropical locale they came from)". To which I reply, "Of course not ... and after a dozen dives you won't have it here either".

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[billt4sf]

Absolutely. That advice/recommendation/stipulation is made on most open water courses. Every PADI student should sign the 'Safe Diving Practices' Statement of Understanding. It includes the following:

• If diving conditions are worse than those in which I am experienced, postpone diving or select an alternate site with better conditions.

• Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience.

• Recognize that additional training is recommended for participation in specialty diving activities, in other geographic areas...

Signing statements mean nothing. Any teacher knows that. The only thing that matters is what people are hands-on trained for. There was no hands-on training of the situational awareness required for diving in different conditions in my OW, AOW, Nitrox, or Drysuit courses, and we suffered for it. That's a big reason that, for our next course, we plan to seek out something that does address situational awareness -- Fundies, maybe.

Situational awareness is arguably the most important thing that divers should be trained about. That would cover the whole argument you guys are having -- you don't need to train divers that cold water is harder than warm -- you need to train divers to think about what they are changing when they change anything and seek advice, mentoring, etc.

- Bill

 

[DevonDiver]

Signing statements mean nothing. Any teacher knows that.

Signing alone maybe. But reading, understanding and respecting? Means something....

The only thing that matters is what people are hands-on trained for.

My next class in the Philippines, I'll fly them all to Canada... point at the water and say "No! Don't go in! This is what I was talking about in the classroom!".

Situational awareness is arguably the most important thing that divers should be trained about.\l

I see situational awareness at the end of a see-saw. At the other end is 'task loading'.

Experience decreases task-loading - new and demanding skills become routine, unconscious skills. This decreases task loading. Consequently, situational awareness improves.

Add new skills, equipment or conditions - expect a rise in task loading. Expect a decrease in situational awareness.

IMHO, Fundies talks about the concept of situational awareness, but achieves it through repetition of certain core skills to the level of routine. It isn't a magic pill. Addition of subsequent new skills and demands still has a detrimental effect on the situational awareness of a fundies trained diver.

A decent OW course, with an equal level of repetitive practice would have the same practical effect. Fundies simply differs because it applies a higher categorization to the performance levels of those core skills, which is either not present, or not as robust, in other entry-level syllabus.

 

[DCBC]

My next class in the Philippines, I'll fly them all to Canada... point at the water and say "No! Don't go in! This is what I was talking about in the classroom!".

Either that, or let them dive. Just make sure you're paid up-front. It would also be a good idea to take out large life insurance policies on them. When you get back, you can retire...

 

[rhwestfall]

See, this could be one heck of a certification program. Academics, then dives in 8-12 locations around the world to experience various environmental conditions with mini-academic sessions specific to the location. Now, that would be appropriately called "Master Diver" as a certification. :cool2:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I see situational awareness at the end of a see-saw. At the other end is 'task loading'.

Experience decreases task-loading - new and demanding skills become routine, unconscious skills. This decreases task loading. Consequently, situational awareness improves.

Add new skills, equipment or conditions - expect a rise in task loading. Expect a decrease in situational awareness.

This is absolutely true and demonstrable ... all one needs to do is take an experienced diver with excellent diving and awareness skills and hand him a camera ...

IMHO, Fundies talks about the concept of situational awareness, but achieves it through repetition of certain core skills to the level of routine. It isn't a magic pill. Addition of subsequent new skills and demands still has a detrimental effect on the situational awareness of a fundies trained diver.

A decent OW course, with an equal level of repetitive practice would have the same practical effect. Fundies simply differs because it applies a higher categorization to the performance levels of those core skills, which is either not present, or not as robust, in other entry-level syllabus.

What makes Fundies successful is that (a) they have a systemized approach to not just learning the concepts of situational awareness, but practicing skills that enhance its development, and (b) if you don't put sufficient effort into developing the skills to a practiceable level you won't pass the class.

A good OW class can achieve similar results if they implement similar expectations ... but what a Fundies class can do that an OW class can't is expect you to go out and practice these things on your own. I don't know how it works today, but when I took Fundies it was more often the case that you'd get a "provisional" rating, and have to go practice what you learned for a time, then come back for evaluation. Gaining the requisite skill to pass usually took far more diving than was encompassed in the class.

You really can't do that with an OW student ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

What would be the cutoff temperature between a cold water and a warm water diver? When we do local dives, the water temperature is generally in the vicinity of 61° F--are we training cold water or warm water divers? What if we decide that 62° is the cutoff--if we go to do a dive and find out that a recent spate of warm weather had raised the temperature to 63°, does that change the certification status? What if there is a thermocline, with the upper layer above the cutoff temperature and the bottom layer below it--how long does the student have to be below the thermocline to qualify for a cold water rating?

I think there are also factors beyond temperature that need to be considered, and that varies greatly by location.

There is no question that here in Colorado, we generally run shorter dives than we would in the tropics. It is not the temperature that is the real issue--it is the visibility. I want students to have the best possible dive under the circumstances, but there is little to nothing to see where we train, and what little there is to see is very hard to see. I am very concerned with the potential of losing students during such a dive, so I run line for them to follow, hands on the line at all times. I can't string enough line to give them a nice 45 minute experience without just going back and forth over the same area. Once the line is laid, it tends to be at one depth, so students don't change depths as much, which limits their learning about buoyancy changes.

I have also conducted OW dives in warmer locations, especially in Key Largo. I was able to teach a lot of extra stuff during those dives, and it was not just the extra time that allowed it. I was able to do so much more without having to worry about losing them at any moment. I was able to teach them how to navigate back to a boat. I was able to work on buoyancy more effectively. It is also a lot more fun for them--and I really think a student who has fun on a dive is more likely to continue diving.

 

[DCBC]

What would be the cutoff temperature between a cold water and a warm water diver?

For me this is a combination between water temperature, dive duration, and the percentage of Helium used. As this is in the Basic SCUBA area, it would most likely just relate to water temperature. For me a Cold Water Dive is anything below 50 degrees. Temperatures here usually vary between 31 and 50 degrees. Above 50's, I'm happy to use a Wet Suit, but as I've mentioned, it depends upon the dive. Each of us has a different susceptibility to cold and the level of comfort we find acceptable for how long. When I think of warm water, I think of the Caribbean, South Pacific or other tropical location.

 

[boulderjohn]

For me this is a combination between water temperature, dive duration, and the percentage of Helium used. As this is in the Basic SCUBA area, it would most likely just relate to water temperature. For me a Cold Water Dive is anything below 50 degrees. Temperatures here usually vary between 31 and 50 degrees. Above 50's, I'm happy to use a Wet Suit, but as I've mentioned, it depends upon the dive. Each of us has a different susceptibility to cold and the level of comfort we find acceptable for how long. When I think of warm water, I think of the Caribbean, South Pacific or other tropical location.

Within the topic of this thread, it does not matter what any one of us thinks is a personal cold tolerance. If people want to have two different certifications, one for cold water and one for warm water, they are going to have to define the terms in ways that can be applied to the standards. If a temperature cutoff is defined, then all my other questions are pertinent as well. If you can answer those, I have a bunch more.

Even if it were a good idea to have two different certifications (and I don't think it is), I think it would be an absolute nightmare to define and regulate.