Open Water Certifications – Cold vs Warm

[DCBC]

...The question of whether an instructor can write a test question and make it a requirement for certification is not central to the issue, and therefore it's an invalid focus for the discussion.

It definitely is relevant and you continue to evade answering my questions (we both know why). Considering that there are other threads in-which it's more appropriate to discuss Agency differences, I'll try to reconstruct what I've already said in-light of this thread. So I'll restart...

Not all Diver training courses are the same. Each certification Agency either restricts or encourages their Instructors to surpass training Standards. So regardless if a person trains in warm or cold water, the scope of the diver training program will vary (dependent on the Agency and the Instructor giving the course). This is a factor when you compare Diver competence; as some programs are much more comprehensive than another. In the context of the OP, it is a factor for consideration.

As to warm and cold water, it has been my experience that cold water courses (especially those that require the Diver to deal with tide, altitude, low visibility, current, waves and surf) require a higher level of fitness and performance than many vacation type courses that are undertaken in "ideal conditions."

I believe that any Diver Training Program should prepare the Student for the environment in-which they will dive locally. Moreover "Better Conditions" are those which have less environmental hazard. It is for this reason why a Diver who's certified to dive the North Atlantic (for example) is also certified to dive in ideal conditions. On the other hand, the Diver who was certified to dive in ideal conditions is not certified to dive in the North Atlantic (worse conditions). This is an understanding that's shared by all certification agencies. Generally, the "scope of certification" of a cold water diver is larger than that of a warm water diver; enough said.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Very true.

I learned to dive in the UK. Dives were rarely longer than 20mins... hypothermia was a risk.

Cold water: 4x 20 mins = 80 mins in-water training time.

I teach in the tropics. Dives are rarely shorter than 50 mins.... air consumption is the only limitation (assuming multi-level/shallow option).

Warm water: 4x 50 mins = 200 mins in-water training time.

In general, I think the length of in-water training time has a direct correlation on the development of student confidence and competence.

... you got short-changed, to my concern. My OW students get a minimum of 150 minutes of in-water time during their checkout dives ... more if I think they need it. I don't think that's unusual among the better instructors I know here ... regardless of which agency they teach for.

Thermal units are a concern, of course. But proper exposure equipment makes it possible to go far longer than 20 minutes without it becoming a distraction to the learning experience ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added June 13th, 2013 at 07:34 AM ----------

"In-Water".

Training hours is fine. I think in-water time should be measurable too...

I like that in other agencies... you know where you stand.

NAUI does mandate that the in-water training dives for OW (they call it "Scuba Diver") must exceed 100 minutes.

Frankly I think that's inadequate under almost all circumstances ... but it does define a baseline.

As for longer dives, while I applaud those of you who are doing them, do you truly believe that every instructor teaching in a tropical location does longer dives based on water temperature? I don't ... they're still constrained by the business decisions of the company they work for, and logically a percentage of them will be motivated to keep costs down by cutting corners and teaching to the minimums. The inherent conflict of interest between cost and quality exists regardless of where you're teaching. Good and bad instructors are located everywhere. And generally speaking, the most significant difference is going to be whether the instructor ... and the dive op they work for ... is more motivated by profit or quality.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Ste Wart]

As for longer dives, while I applaud those of you who are doing them, do you truly believe that every instructor teaching in a tropical location does longer dives based on water temperature? I don't ... they're still constrained by the business decisions of the company they work for, and logically a percentage of them will be motivated to keep costs down by cutting corners and teaching to the minimums. The inherent conflict of interest between cost and quality exists regardless of where you're teaching. Good and bad instructors are located everywhere. And generally speaking, the most significant difference is going to be whether the instructor ... and the dive op they work for ... is more motivated by profit or quality.

Could you give an example of this please? Is it taken from your large experience of teaching in these locations?

I've worked in Australia, Malaysia, Egypt and Honduras to name a few. I've never had an operator tell me to do a dive of less than 50 minutes with my students. One insisted I do minimum one hour.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Could you give an example of this please? Is it taken from your large experience of teaching in these locations?

I've worked in Australia, Malaysia, Egypt and Honduras to name a few. I've never had an operator tell me to do a dive of less than 50 minutes with my students. One insisted I do minimum one hour.

Do you truly believe that every instructor teaching in a tropical location does longer dives based on water temperature?

It's a simple question ... so answer it simply ... yes or no?

My answer is no ... my experience teaching in those locations is irrelevent ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tkdgodess]

All i know is the instructors who taught my latest 2 students (in the persain gulf recently) have done me no favors.... Off to the north pacific in drysuits we go.... Both pressed the elevator up buttons and more...at least it was the pool to sort things out.


edit... I aim for 40 mins per dive, air depending.

 

[Frosty]

Back to the origonal question. Im not a dive pro but I do know about task loading.
On the basis that a student diving tropical waters as a rule has good visibility and no issues with cold I feel that they will absorb a skill faster than in cold /low vis water. My reasoning being that they only have to worry about THAT skill.
Then again diving is for pleasure so I just can't be bothered diveing when I can't see anything

 

[lowviz]

...//... what i have seen in the classes here they do not give enough information about cold water and equipment in the class ...//...

Absolutely agree. Still sorting through the variables, I may post some of my 'experiments' soon.

time to unsubscribe (post #34 has come to fruition)......

Yeah right, it has become a trainwreck, you have to watch...

 

[Quero]

Do you truly believe that every instructor teaching in a tropical location does longer dives based on water temperature?

It's a simple question ... so answer it simply ... yes or no?

My answer is no ... my experience teaching in those locations is irrelevent ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, perhaps not every instructor in a tropical location conducts longer training dives, but certainly the vast majority (I would estimate 80-90%) do so.

 

[DevonDiver]

... you got short-changed, to my concern. My OW students get a minimum of 150 minutes of in-water time during their checkout dives ... more if I think they need it. I don't think that's unusual among the better instructors I know here ... regardless of which agency they teach for.

In hindsight, I balance my short OW times against the very lengthy confined water training (6 sessions at 120+ minutes each). That said, it was 3-4 celcius in the fresh water lake that I learned in (and blizzard conditions one weekend)... and this was back before any changes (?) that permitted drysuit use for OW.

Thermal units are a concern, of course. But proper exposure equipment makes it possible to go far longer than 20 minutes without it becoming a distraction to the learning experience ...

It's been a while since I trained/taught in the UK. What's the situation now with dry suit use for OW? There wasn't a problem doing it with BSAC before, but I believe PADI had stipulations about it... something to do with the instructor operating the suit, because OW could (should?) not train/qualify for dry suit?

NAUI does mandate that the in-water training dives for OW (they call it "Scuba Diver") must exceed 100 minutes.

As does ANDI.... for all its courses. Lengths vary, but ensure a minimum in-water experience is gained.

As for longer dives, while I applaud those of you who are doing them, do you truly believe that every instructor teaching in a tropical location does longer dives based on water temperature?

I don't believe every warm-water instructor does it, any more than I believe every cold-water instructor does it.

Let's try and talk 'trends', rather than throw the word "every" around...

 

[billt4sf]

Well, we certainly have found cold-water diving to be *much* more difficult than warm-water diving! Sure, we may have taken (are still taking) longer than most, but I'll tell you what -- *alot* of folks have found cold-water diving to be much harder than warm-water diving. Alot give up! Just read the first few responses to my blog:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/norcal/448238-cold-water-diving-pita.html

Whether there should be different certifications -- I'll leave that to the experts.

The most important thing is that divers get trained that when you change something, you must assess its impact to your diving, based on your current skill set. That includes water temp, equipment, location, current, boat, buddies, night, ... anything! We have definitely learned the hard way on that. If we had any training about that, it was minimal or non-existent.

- Bill