Suicide Clips

[MXGratefulDiver]

Seriously???? Its not that hard to figure out.

... depends on whether you're looking at the line or making love to it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

My personal belief is that "Situational Awareness" and "gear familiarity" is most important.

Yet, when considering novice divers... those are the first factors that cannot be assumed...

When I started side mount diving in tight and sandy places they "bolt snap religion" nearly got me hurt....bolt snap was full of debris and could not be opened. That could have been real bad...

Valid point. There's a need to balance risks, but that comes with experience and is specific to the demands of the dive and environment.

As a cave diver, you're aware of the spectrum of risks. A novice diver wouldn't be. Whether using a bolt-snap or suicide clip, you will have ensured no metal-to-metal connections. You'd also have multiple cutting devices. Again, a novice diver probably wouldn't have that knowledge or the ingrained protocols.

In a cave/wreck, you don't want to cut the guideline. You'd cut away the jammed snap to free an entrapment. That's not a consideration for open water divers.. An open water diver might use a carabiner to connect directly from D-Ring to D-Ring. They aren't warned of that principle ("no metal-to-metal"). There's no cutting out of that if something tangles.

What would be a consideration for open water divers isn't a jammed snap... it'd be getting hooked up during a DSMB deployment... or clipping onto kelp, subsequently causing a greater tangle (maybe without an accessible knife to free yourself). What is a jammed snap to an open water diver? Not a critical and immediate safety issue really...

Don't just learn the "what's" Learn the "why's" as well. Mark

Good advice. I'll add... until you understand the "why's", just stick to advised practices and apply the "what's"... they'll keep you safe until you're ready to make an informed decision for yourself.

 

[neonstingray]

To those asking about the original source or scare that started this, I believe I read it in that famous book about the Andrea Doria divers, where one of the divers drowned because he had a belt or his weight belt full of large carabiners going all the way around the belt. Then he got tangled in a mess of line and as he struggled the clips started all clipping onto different parts of the line until he was fully entangled.

 

[Mr Monkey]

Well.... when I originally posted the question I didn't think it would start such an interesting debate. As a new diver, so obviously my views aren't going to be the best, I think it seems sensible to avoid any unnecessary risk while still learning.

The name is enough to put me off using them! I was using one without knowing it was a suicide clip. I think I'll leave them alone for now.

But thanks for all the information it's been very helpful. I do have a number of other questions so will post again until you get tired of answering them!

 

[TMHeimer]

I have a couple attached to my BC to attach a standard whistle and the thing that my console fits into to avoid it dangling. Since these 2 things never come off, I just wrap duct tape around the clip and make sure that's secure every now and again. I don't tape the one on my sausage because I don't always use the sausage. But it's right in front of my BC, so I can't figure how this would be hard to unclip if it got caught on anything-- maybe I'm wrong.

 

[flots am]

But thanks for all the information it's been very helpful. I do have a number of other questions so will post again until you get tired of answering them!

You're not likely to die because of your choice of clip selection, however if you kick Darwin in the balls enough, eventually he's going to come for you.

The "little stuff" (equipment choices and procedures) suddenly becomes really important when you run into the situation it was designed for.

flots.

 

[BlackPatch]

The Suicide Clip or Snap Gate Carabiner was designed back in the annals of time for mountaineering. Adopted for use in single pitch climbing in the 30's. They are primarily still a Climbing "Dynamic weight bearing" tool also used for virtually every conceivable use.

Consider this:
The average climbing rope diameter is 10mm and that is why the gate opening is so large, This is why in the 3D world of water they can present more of an issue than smaller gate opening devices.
After climbing for 16 years in many different disciplines and sub sects of climbing I know how to use these pieces of equipment. I have never had issues when using the equipment as intended by the manufacturer.

HOWEVER they are designed for above water operation.

If you absolutely must have a wide gate carabiner, use Snaps underwater, NEVER LOCKING GATES (Reason below).
Preferrably plastic which can be destroyed in an emergency.

Something like this: 10Pcs ITW NEXUS Military Carabiner D Rings Plastic Locking Carabiner-in Scope Mounts & Accessories from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com

Locking Carabiners can be over tightened very easily and do not have salt water resistant components therefore can become very difficult to release.

The proper technique to securing a Locking Gate Carabiner is to place the carabiners solid back in the palm of your hand, place your thumb and index finger on the locking mech and gently twist. As soon as pressure is placed, release. The gate is tight enough. Also, always have the gate facing down. This means in a fumbling activity you are not twisting the gate tighter.

Another option is the "Grimlock" originally designed to secure equipment to MOLLE. These are plastic and have a snap release that only operates with thumb on the bottom of the device and index finger at the top to depress the spring mech.

Both the mil grade plastic carabiners and Grimlocks can be destroyed in the event of an emergency.

People will say that Suicide clips are bad, without showing differing options. However ScubaBoard is full of people who love the sport of SCUBA and explain the Why's and the What's. Here are differing options.

Biggest piece of advice is to know your equipment blindfolded and train for the unexpected. This will help to curtail panic.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Got a question for you anti's. If they are so dangerous WHY does almost all the gear sold have that type clip? Safety sausages, hose clips, and lots of other comercially sold gear has this type clip. If it is so dangerous wouldn't this be a liability issue? Or is this just something wreck/cave divers worry about and have extrapolated out to every situation? Maybe this thread should be moved to the Scuba Snopes thread. LOL

Why don't you ask John Ormsby what he thinks about the issue?

Sure, they're most likely to get you killed in a wreck, or to a lesser extent a cave. But while there's less chance for them to snag on something in open water, the severity of the harm that can occur if they do snag doesn't really decrease...and at least where I dive, there's always plenty of fishing line.

 

[manni-yunk]

Why don't you ask John Ormsby what he thinks about the issue?

Why? Is he looking for someone to translate Don Quixote ??

(OK, OK, bad literary joke that no one will get.....but I still had to type it!)

 

[scubamarketing]

After a couple thousand dives with suicide clips, I thought the anti-suicide clip hype was just that. Then when I took my cave course and every little thing got caught if not properly secured, I promptly got rid of my suicide clips. I still haven't had one catch on something, but just knowing the feeling of getting stuck on anything, I decided to avoid the situation if at all possible. The clips I get now are less expensive than the carabiners I used to use, so it's a win-win.