Suicide Clips

[chrpai]

I'm confused, you start by saying very little scuba gear comes with a suicide clip but then tell a story about how you bought a sausage that came with one. Which is it?

In the LDS in my town, I can't even find a proper SS bolt snap. One LDS sells brass bolt snaps ( they don't seem to have gotten the memo about cut thumbs ) and the other doesn't sell them at all. Every little accessory from XS Scuba, Trident, Innovative whatever et al comes with a variety of plastic clips and carabineers.

I don't really think any of this is "suicide" for an OW rec diver but I also won't dive it myself.

 

[flots am]

Got a question for you anti's. If they are so dangerous WHY does almost all the gear sold have that type clip? Safety sausages, hose clips, and lots of other comercially sold gear has this type clip. If it is so dangerous wouldn't this be a liability issue? Or is this just something wreck/cave divers worry about and have extrapolated out to every situation? Maybe this thread should be moved to the Scuba Snopes thread. LOL

The cheap clips are plastic and you can just twist them off if they get stuck. Probably not an intentional design feature, but they're not hard to break or just rip off.

FWIW, you shouldn't be diving with anything you can't cut off in an emergency. Clips can jam and you don't want to find yourself attached to a wreck or even just a heap of <might have been a boat or equipment> on the bottom, if you manage to get snagged. This is why you'll see bolt-snaps connected to equipment using cave line, nylon rope, etc., not metal "quick links".

flots.

 

[diversteve]

I use them to secure expensive heavy gear like my video housing that also gets handed up onto the boat. But I use the locking kind sold for climbing - the knurled ring screws down over the part that opens. They're about $10. ex:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think the case against "suicide" clips is overblown for most recreational applications. Butterfly clips are commonly sold in dive shops, and commonly used even by some tech divers.

Like a lot of things, people give worst-case examples in order to justify their own preferences. If you're not diving in caves or wrecks, or in places where entanglement hazards exist ... which would be most of the diving world ... then it's a complete non-issue.

Like anything else, choose the tool that's suitable for your applicationi ... there is no "best" for every circumstance ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[manni-yunk]

I'm confused, you start by saying very little scuba gear comes with a suicide clip but then tell a story about how you bought a sausage that came with one. Which is it?

.

Its pretty simple....isnt it? I own HUNDREDS of pieces of gear each bought individually. Out of those hundreds - one safety sausage came with a plastic suicide clip. I would define ONE out of HUNDREDS.....as "very little".

---------- Post added May 1st, 2013 at 10:31 AM ----------

Open water or not -


Many areas you ascend and descend on a line. Any gear attached to your body with a suicide clip creates the potential to catch the line and trap you.

Overhead or not - any suicide clip creates an opportunity to catch a line, rope, net, piece of metal, etc - and potentially trap you.


Im not a strong believer on many of the paranoid scuba police teachings - this one I believe - IVE SEEN it happen.

---------- Post added May 1st, 2013 at 10:31 AM ----------

I use them to secure expensive heavy gear like my video housing that also gets handed up onto the boat. But I use the locking kind sold for climbing - the knurled ring screws down over the part that opens. They're about $10. ex:

View attachment 153617

I have no problem with the locking kind.......I wouldnt call that a suicide clip.

 

[TSandM]

Clips like kelp, too . . .

Are small plastic clips (which generally require a reasonably amount of force to open) a major risk of death in tropical reef diving? Of course not. Could they cause a problem? Yes, and the mechanism is clear. In most cases, a solid diver would deal with the issue calmly (or his buddy would). In overhead environments, do I want anything on my person that is likely to snag, especially to snag something I can't cut, like wire or cable? No.

We all make gear decisions. Mine are generally made with an eye to minimizing the likelihood of trouble, whether it's just an annoyance or something worse.

 

[fnfalman]

I like to know how a carabiner would trap an ascending line/descending line for OW rec divers.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

My personal belief is that "Situational Awareness" and "gear familiarity" is most important. Spoons don't make people fat and guns don't "kill" people.

When I started cave diving suicide clips, ie... the first one devon diver shows, were BAD! When I started side mount diving in tight and sandy places they "bolt snap religion" nearly got me hurt. I needed to remove a bottle to get through a restriction and out of a cave. Sand under the bolt and spring would not allow that on one of my bottles. Fortunately, the other was fine. I removed the bottle, exited and all was well. The other bolt snap was full of debris and could not be opened. That could have been real bad had both bolts been compromised.

I chose to move to large suicide clips for that discipline of diving. I still use large bolt snaps for my bungies, back up lights, reels, etc. Each has is place in safety. In my case suicide clips are more safe for the lower attachment on my sidemount bottles. Situational awareness is important with all gear as mental preparedness is what keeps us safe not the gear we wear. The uniform does not make a player. Skill, practice, awareness, and willingness to think for yourself is most important.

There are reason to not use these clips, but there are also reasons they can me more safe. Don't just learn the "what's" Learn the "why's" as well. Mark

 

[DevonDiver]

If they are so dangerous WHY does almost all the gear sold have that type clip? Safety sausages, hose clips, and lots of other comercially sold gear has this type clip.

To be honest, a lot of the scuba gizmos I see in shops are total garbage - made for cheap, sold for max profit and designed by people who don't dive. They get away with it because the biggest market for such gizmos are novice divers.

If it is so dangerous wouldn't this be a liability issue?

Twice you've said "so dangerous" and yet nobody responding in this thread has actually said that.

They fail to mitigate a known risk in specific circumstances. Nothing more, nothing less. Options exist that do mitigate that risk - hence, a more generally approved option.

Or is this just something wreck/cave divers worry about and have extrapolated out to every situation?

Those who dive cave/wrecks aren't likely to swap over their attachments whenever they enjoy an open-water dive are they?

Entanglement in clips has contributed to diver fatalities in cave/wrecks. It's known risk mitigation factor. Given two equal options, why not opt for the safest?

The risk factors are far more severe in confined spaces when using guidelines, which makes the need to mitigate those risks far more critical, but it would be imprudent to assume that the open water environment would be free from such risks. If such an entrapment did occur in open water, it'd likely be easy to resolve - but that'd depend on the presence of mind of the diver. Panic kills - so it's unwise to write the risk off as irrelevant, especially when considering novice divers. As others in the thread have mentioned, there are times when even an open water diver might come into contact with lines, nets or kelp - all of which could become entrapped in a 'suicide' type clip. It'd probably never happen... very low odds.... but aren't most open water scuba incidents typically 'very low odds' freak accidents?

A diver might have good reason to opt for a 'suicide clip'. They certainly have good reasons for opting against one. Either way, that decision shouldn't be based on ignorance, nor because of "what was on the dive center shelf at the time"...

 

[manni-yunk]

I like to know how a carabiner would trap an ascending line/descending line for OW rec divers.

Seriously???? Its not that hard to figure out.