I was just making a point that running out of air is not some accident that happened to the diver beyond their control, but that they were being complacent.
Fatalities statistics: what kills people the most in scuba diving?
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I was just making a point that running out of air is not some accident that happened to the diver beyond their control, but that they were being complacent.
To my mind if the first problem in the cascade is running out of air, it's not complacency, it's downright carelessness.
If it's the first problem I agree, but if it's a result of equipment failure (either catastrophic or mismanaged) then that's something else.
Okay, I am going to ask a rather stupid question, but one that is bugging me...why is running out of air a life-threatening emergency in sport diving? I'll take answers, then give some opinions.
SeaRat
SeaRat
you should have redundancies for a catastrophic equipment failure including (but not limited to) a buddy
---------- Post added February 15th, 2013 at 02:24 PM ----------
simple answer: if you run out of air you cannot breathe and you die
I am guessing that since you explicitly mentioned sport diving that you are intending to offer going to the surface as an option, but if you can get to the surface, you are not really out of air, since the surface is an air source.
Okay Nimoh, why can't you breath (other than having gills
)?SeaRat
PS, not breathing doesn't immediately lead to death. It takes time. Please play along with me on this, as it is a valid technique for evaluating accidents. In the semiconductor industry, it's called the "5 Whys" method of root causes analysis. I'm not doing this out of spite--it is a real technique.
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Nimoh has the right idea.
I still like the teaching that, when diving, the surface is not an option. Have a buddy or a redundant gas source. Early on I would sometimes run out of air and surface on an empty cylinder. Now older and wiser, my dive plans are safer and equipment better. It makes for a more relaxing and fun day. Cheers
I still like the teaching that, when diving, the surface is not an option. Have a buddy or a redundant gas source. Early on I would sometimes run out of air and surface on an empty cylinder. Now older and wiser, my dive plans are safer and equipment better. It makes for a more relaxing and fun day. Cheers
Okay Nimoh, why can't you breath (other than having gills
SeaRat
PS, not breathing doesn't immediately lead to death. It takes time. Please play along with me on this, as it is a valid technique for evaluating accidents. In the semiconductor industry, it's called the "5 Whys" method of root causes analysis. I'm not doing this out of spite--it is a real technique.
I have no intention of playing along, make your point, I'll read it and possibly respond, but this game doesn't really interest me.
Most times, especially on forums like this, we want quick, easy answers that do not challenge the current methods of doing things. But we are having people die in situations which should not precipitate a life-threatening emergency. The Five Whys methodology of Root Causes Analysis is used to drill down to the root causes. Sometimes those root causes can be very uncomfortable to see. It goes to commercialism, training techniques, and the equipment we use.
I come from an earlier time. We ran out of air many times in my early diving (1959-67). But we were taught differently. When I finally got certified by LA County in 1963, our pool harassment session consisted of the instructor putting a gill net over us, and having us untangle ourselves. In the process he would turn our air off, and we'd take a breath and nothing was there; buddy breathing under the net was necessary to pass his course (LeRoy French was the instructor's name). Our equipment was different too, with the J-valve and no SPG being used. At times the J-valve would accidentally be bumped and we would not have that 300 psi remaining as it had already been pulled. This was fairly normal.
In my book, The NOAA Diving Manual, Diving for Science and Technology, copyright 1975, they state:
These were basic watermanship skills. Without those skills (NAUI had similar requirements), the diver could not start the scuba classes. [/quote]
Many people graduating from scuba class don't have the confidence that they used to have in the water. This so-called "out-of-air" is only true if someone believes that there is no air available at all, and they will die without either the buddy's octopus or an alternative air source. This leads to panic, and to increased efforts which use the oxygen faster. There are alternatives, such as surfacing. At 33 feet, there are two lungs-full in each diver, for instarce...more later. Here are three photos from times past, with my photo on the right during a club dive in 1963 or so.
SeaRat
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Glad you made it through the good old days Searat.
I stand by my comment, inasmuch as, earlier posters had identified "panic" as the more likely 'killer'. Further, since you are getting into semantics, I will expand somewhat. Particularly, with open water sport divers, and of course assuming these sport divers are diving newer non-vintage gear in perfect working order, it's not complacency that leads to an out of air emergency, it is outright carelessness.
I stand by my comment, inasmuch as, earlier posters had identified "panic" as the more likely 'killer'. Further, since you are getting into semantics, I will expand somewhat. Particularly, with open water sport divers, and of course assuming these sport divers are diving newer non-vintage gear in perfect working order, it's not complacency that leads to an out of air emergency, it is outright carelessness.
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