'Open Water' only sidemount BCDs: Your opinions?

[beanojones]

With this set up - can you breathe / share gas through the Air2 alternate source while dumping through the LPI?

I am not sure of the exact thing you are asking with the question, so I will just answer that of course one can breathe and dump air from an Air2 while using SM the same way one can when diving BM.

 

[Johanan]

I am not sure of the exact thing you are asking with the question, so I will just answer that of course one can breathe and dump air from an Air2 while using SM the same way one can when diving BM.

Never mind. Actually it is not about SM or BM setup, but about the integrated LPI/octo. I have never used an Air2 and can just imagine how it works. I wonder, how could I dump through an Air2 if my OOA buddy is breathing from it?

 

[rjack321]

I also have no problem with my Armadillo and Nomad in open water because the dump is on the shoulder. However, the LT and the SMS50 have the LPI on the bottom on one side and the dump on the bottom on the other side. There is no LPI or dump anywhere near the top of the wing. So the only way to dump from the original LT and SMS50 is to be horizontal with fins slightly higher than head to get the dump at the highest point.

The Razor wing's dump is partly wrapped around the side, front kidney area. The only way to dump is to roll about 45deg

 

[turt1e]

The Razor wing's dump is partly wrapped around the side, front kidney area. The only way to dump is to roll about 45deg

So the pull dump cord for your Razor runs up to your shoulder, but the valve itself is down low? From your last post I was under the impression that the valve was also up at the shoulder.

I have the original SMS50 and like you I have found that rolling 45deg is the easiest way to dump since it doesn't have a valve up at the shoulder. And while yes it does work fine as is, I wouldn't mind having a dump valve up near the top to make it easier.

I wonder, how could I dump through an Air2 if my OOA buddy is breathing from it?

My guess is that you don't let your OOA buddy breath from it. Give him your primary instead since it should be on a longer hose, which should also make the incident a little less of an intimate affair. Of course depending on who your buddy is maybe you want he/she wrapped around you trying to breath from the Air2.

 

[rjack321]

So the pull dump cord for your Razor runs up to your shoulder, but the valve itself is down low? From your last post I was under the impression that the valve was also up at the shoulder.

I have the original SMS50 and like you I have found that rolling 45deg is the easiest way to dump since it doesn't have a valve up at the shoulder. And while yes it does work fine as is, I wouldn't mind having a dump valve up near the top to make it easier.

I have 2 rigs:
a Hollis SMS100 which has the dump at the top of the wing and the inflator hose on the bottom left.
a Razor with Razor wing which has the dump on the lower left and the inflator on the lower right crossing the chest to attach on the left chest.

Wings which require rolling to dump don't work very well in caves. Elbows with corrugated hoses that you can't get above your head don't work so hot in caves either. And in smaller SM caves butt dumps are on the wrong end of the wing to dump while ascending something narrow.

Wings with dumps at the top work fine in OW however, although not according to the latest marketing hype which we're discussing here.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Richard, I think the point you're missing is that the original LT and SMS50 do not have dumps at the top. That is why they've done this. Honestly, i kind of wish they have released these before I bought my LT and SMS50. I would have gotten these instead and just swapped the LPI with the dump and put the dump back at the top where I prefer it to be.

 

[turt1e]

I would have gotten these instead and just swapped the LPI with the dump and put the dump back at the top where I prefer it to be.

I had my local dive shop order an LT Blue Water since my wife would now like to try sidemount after using my SMS50, but had difficulty dumping air using it. Of course the dive shop thought they were doing me a favor and instead ordered the LT cave. So I've been following this thread with interest because I don't quite get all the derision these two versions seem to be getting.

Rob, I feel better now about calling the shop and having them order me the correct LT knowing that you yourself would have preferred to have the LT blue water.
So, thank you!

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Or, worse, perhaps it is a prediction that the multitude of recreational instructors fast-tracking to sidemount instructor qualifications will lack the proper expertise and will be failing to prepare future sidemount students for proper trim or issues of hose management? Could it be a prediction that there will be/are sidemount instructors who cannot teach proper trim and propulsion skills to their students.

You are predicting correctly, Andy. I watched Wayne and Jason Fisch of the Scuba Connection in NJ work their butts off with some Who's Who of sidemount cave diving so they'd be good instructors for the PADI open water sidemount class. They just started teaching when local PADI course directors began to pump out sidemount instructors like a Who's Who Can't hold trim puppy mill. Totally unfair to guys who aspire to be excellent educators!

Another friend of mine who became a PADI sidemount instructor after learning to do sidemount with Brian Kakuk was told that he didn't have to be worry about being picky about trim, danglies, or good skills since it was just a PADI open water class he was going to be teaching.

This attitude only hurts good instructors and takes money out of their pockets. It's unfortunate that manufacturers would support the trend toward mediocrity rather than inspire talent.

 

[MSargeant]

You are predicting correctly, Andy. I watched Wayne and Jason Fisch of the Scuba Connection in NJ work their butts off with some Who's Who of sidemount cave diving so they'd be good instructors for the PADI open water sidemount class. They just started teaching when local PADI course directors began to pump out sidemount instructors like a Who's Who Can't hold trim puppy mill. Totally unfair to guys who aspire to be excellent educators!

Another friend of mine who became a PADI sidemount instructor after learning to do sidemount with Brian Kakuk was told that he didn't have to be worry about being picky about trim, danglies, or good skills since it was just a PADI open water class he was going to be teaching.

This attitude only hurts good instructors and takes money out of their pockets. It's unfortunate that manufacturers would support the trend toward mediocrity rather than inspire talent.

(UK here) there are a lot of clubs who offer sidemount courses and they're... sub par for lack of better wording.
I noticed that the apeks advert on this site has a picture of Garry Dallas (the dude in SM) who i would say is the best sidemount instructor in the UK without a shadow of a doubt. You can tell who his students are because their profile and hose routing are perfect regardless of their background. (No smoke-up-backside-blowing, just giving credit where credit is due)
On the other hand there are those who have trained elsewhere and like the courses they have undertaken, and it shows. It does take money out of those intructors who work their butts off to become a good instructor and not just jump to the next ticket. And it also damages the "reputation" for lack of a better word, of sidemount diving.

 

[rjack321]

Richard, I think the point you're missing is that the original LT and SMS50 do not have dumps at the top. That is why they've done this. Honestly, i kind of wish they have released these before I bought my LT and SMS50. I would have gotten these instead and just swapped the LPI with the dump and put the dump back at the top where I prefer it to be.

Yes well anyone diving a wing/BC without a dump at the top or somewhere near the top might as well be using a SMB for buoyancy. Can be made to work, but not optimal by any stretch of the imagination.