How would you handle this?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Like I said before. Right out of Deliverance. All that's missing is the banjo.

Most of the actual West-by-God-Virginian rednecks I know would find the comparison a huge insult. This behavior is more characteristic of spoiled frat boys pretending to be 'country'.

---------- Post Merged at 01:05 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:55 AM ----------

Accusing someone of being a potential mass murderer is way out of line - ref the "kinda guy to bring a gun to a school" type comments.

I think that talk has little to do with the GPO and a lot more to do with the totality of other stuff the brat saw fit to post: a punted porcupine, a firecracker-stuffed snake, some booze+swatted out 12ga pics, and some cow killing/punching videos.

I grew up in the hills, saw and did plenty of hunting, killing, and cleaning of all kinds of stuff, and after looking over his postings I can say that what this guy putting out there isn't that stuff. I doubt he's a sociopath or whatever they're called these days, but he's presenting as the kind of guy who'd stomp a stray dog to death and then talk with his buddies about 'damn, did you see that head come apart?!'
 
I would politely remind him that frivolous lawsuits are easy to get dismissed at a relatively low cost, and that the meritorious claim for malicious prosecution that would follow dismissal would be a lot more expensive for him.

I am not licensed in Washington, but perhaps there is someone here or on NWDC who is and would be willing to put in a few pro bono hours at the pre litigation/letter writing stage?

Conveniently enough, there's a statute saying you need not wait to get the dismissal and then bring a separate action, but can assert malicious prosecution in your answer/counterclaim.

Washington Revised Code 4.24.350(1):

I am also not licensed in WA, but I looked it up and WA has a similar anti-SLAPP statute as in CA. Bob's conduct would arguably be considered protected conduct. A successful anti-SLAPP motion filed by Bob in response to a Complaint would result in an award of attorneys fees, costs, and $10k damages to Bob. It's a very powerful statute. I only point this out because it would be a tremendous incentive for an attorney to rep Bob with no up front cost to him.
 
First, some context: I am probably as far from a left-leaning green as you can get. I do think the kid was an idiot. In my 53 years, I have learned what idiot looks like. I read all the posts, the links, the FB pages, saw all the pictures, and as a big boy I have formed my own opinion.

My opinion, in point form, in no particular order:

1) (This one is in order) People are getting way too personal on this issue and need to step back and reassess.
2) The kid exercised poor judgment.
3) The kid did nothing illegal.
4) I agree with NWGD's displeasure at the act.
5) NWGD asked for advice but proceeded before waiting for it. Best of intentions perhaps, but don't ask if you aren't going to wait for the answer.
6) There are way too many hotheads with way too much testosterone bubbling through their veins who are way too quick to threaten. Newsflash: threats undermine your position, not advance it.
7) IMO, those who threaten people over animals are no better than the worst of the PETA crowd. Animals are not people, and human life is more important. As is the rule of law. The ends do not justify the means.
8) The apparent broadly based support does not justify the vitriol spouted here and on other media.
9) NWGD is not directly responsible for the actions or words of others, but the reality is that the "name and shame" approach has contributed to inappropriate threats against him and his family. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best.
10) There is an expression: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." This kids life has been, perhaps, irretrievably changed for the worse. It did not have to be this way. IMO pride and hubris have interfered - and continue to interfere - on both sides of the divide.

YMMV
 
Zen Diving, what's the huge stake you have in this that you're so hot to stand beside this worm? Your argument seems to be "Oh, he may not be very nice, but what he did isn't illegal, so no one should do anything."

This will be my last post on the matter. You have a very valid question. The answer is nothing. Your impression of my thoughts of him really put him in a better light then I would. The fact is its not illegal, its not a protected area and they are not an endangered species. It does not make what he did right. No I think the kid has some real issues. Thats in itself isn't even the issue. Anyone that stupid really wont make it too far in life and most of the damage they do will be to themselves. My problem is with the way this has been handled from the start. If you have read this thread and the other thread and you cant see the issue then nothing I say will change that. Even bad people who do bad things have rights. If we infringe upon those then we set ourselves up for the same, its just a matter of time. People write the news to suit whatever the current need is. We could paint you to be murderer or a troubled teen, we could call murder self defense or say that you stalked your prey. All of which with out any input from you. We could take away you ability to defend yourself and paint the worst picture of you, that you can imagine. With little or no repercussions. This kid has not been found guilty of a crime yet he is being treated like a child molester. Pictures of him sent to all the dive shops... Really? Why would anyone think they have the right to be judge jury and executioner? Self empowered mob seems to come to mind... I can't continue down this road as I fear this subject will likely get the better of me so i'm done.
 
Last edited:
The high ground on this would have been to not shame the diver publicly. To not contact shops to have him band. To not post his picture with the intent of harming him But to work to have the area closed to harvest either on the basis of protection of the species or protection of a viewing resource.

I'm not familiar with the harassment laws in that area but in my area it is bordering on it. A much easier standard to meet is in a civil lawsuit, what the boys lawyer is talking about, and would involve the things I mentioned at the start of this post. The boy has suffered some damage. I think his lawyer has some traction.

I think Bob's end goal of protecting a dive site is Nobel and good but the actions with the boy could lead to trouble. A jury won't be made up of divers but people seeing things in a different light. I'm sure if Bob was to retain a lawyer he would tell him to not say another thing on a public forum about the boy, if not about the issue at all
 
But, here is the problem....there would be no move to protect this site, or the GPO, without the public outrage that this event created. I would think if the young man had presented a different attitude when first contacted, the matter would have ended right there. I don't think NWGD got his feelings hurt and therefore ranted. He realized that this kid wasn't likely to learn anything without pressure being exerted. Will he learn anything from this? Maybe not. If his parents came to his aid instead of publicly apologizing for his total disregard for anything living (as evidenced by his relishing the torture of animals on his FB page) it speaks that they don't have compassion for life either. I know MY parents would not have tolerated that behavior from me, at ALL.

All in all, if protection of either this site or this species comes from this event, it is all worth it. I seriously doubt all the attention this kid got did anything but puff his pathertic ego up even more.
 
I am also not licensed in WA, but I looked it up and WA has a similar anti-SLAPP statute as in CA. Bob's conduct would arguably be considered protected conduct. A successful anti-SLAPP motion filed by Bob in response to a Complaint would result in an award of attorneys fees, costs, and $10k damages to Bob. It's a very powerful statute. I only point this out because it would be a tremendous incentive for an attorney to rep Bob with no up front cost to him.

This is the credited response.

I'm not familiar with the harassment laws in that area but in my area it is bordering on it. A much easier standard to meet is in a civil lawsuit, what the boys lawyer is talking about, and would involve the things I mentioned at the start of this post. The boy has suffered some damage. I think his lawyer has some traction.

This one rounds out the back end of the curve.

Even bad people who do bad things have rights. This kid has not been found guilty of a crime yet he is being treated like a child molester.

And aside from anyone's posts that actually crossed the line -- and legally speaking that line is a lot further away from what I've seen than all the 'oh, this is close to harassment' posts seem to think it is -- this trash's rights have not been violated.

You have confused what the legal ramifications of his actions are with what the social ramifications of his actions are. Innocent until and unless proven of a crime/civil wrong is a concept that has no relevance outside the penalties enforced by law. Everyone, both privately and commercially, is free to support or shun him as they see fit (assuming no illegality in their acts) regardless of whether he's a criminal.
 
This will be my last post on the matter. You have a very valid question. The answer is nothing. Your impression of my thoughts of him really put him in a better light then I would. The fact is its not illegal, its not a protected area and they are not an endangered species. It does not make what he did right. No I think the kid has some real issues. Thats in itself isn't even the issue. Anyone that stupid really wont make it to far in life and most of the damage they do will be to themselves. My problem is with the way this has been handled from the start. If you have read this thread and the other thread and you cant see the issue then nothing I say will change that. Even bad people who do bad things have rights. If we infringe upon those then we set ourselves up for the same, its just a matter of time. People write news to suite whatever the current need is. We could paint you to be murderer or a troubled teen, we could call murder self defense or say that you stalked your prey. All of which with out any input from you. We could take away you ability to defend yourself and paint the worst picture of you, that you can imagine. With little or no repercussions. This kid has not been found guilty of a crime yet he is being treated like a child molester. Pictures of him sent to all the dive shops... Really? Why would anyone think they have the right to be judge jury and executioner? Self empowered mob seems to come to mind... I can't continue down this road as I fear this subject will likely get the better of me so i'm done.

I think this needs to be read as a sort of an apologist explanation.
As divers at a site like this one in Wa, or at a site like we have here in Fl with the Blue Heron Bridge Marine Park, we do not have much protection from government for an area that has become a virtual petting zoo. All who visit either, know this.
For the site to remain viable, a collective will forms, to protect the area. The divers essentially govern themselves. This becomes it's own social system, with mores and norms, and boundaries. When a person at these sites crosses the boundary on purpose, and shows a predisposition to do it frequently in the future, the collective must organize a response, if it desires the resource to remain optimal and healthy. Laws and government might help in a decade, should these sites someday become legally protected like a Yellowstone, but for the areas to ever reach a shot at such protection, they need to remain healthy, and to be protected by the local population.


As to this kid, I need to use an analogy to make my point...another extreme "black and while" analogy that will annoy some that don't realize I am just trying to explain this easily....
Imagine you live in a neighborhood and have a young daughter. At some point, you discover a neighbor's child is tearing the wings off of bats and birds, shooting dogs with pellet guns, and essentially killing and creating terror for the sheer joy of it....You realize that these are all the early warning signs of the early years of what may become a serial murderer, a psychopath.
You see something very wrong, and now you have some actions to choose.
First, you obviously will prevent your daughter from having any social contact from this kid, and attempt to ensure she is always protected from exposure to him.
Next, you will see if there is anyway the authorities will do anything, but you know that as he has done nothing illegal yet, there will be nothing they will do. At least they will have him as a "person of interest"...and one day, this may shorten the length of time it takes to solve a kidnapping or murder.
Next, you consider options like either moving your family entirely out of this neighborhood, or, you look at the options to get the neighborhood to become aware of the potential threat, and to begin taking steps that may one day remove this kid or family from the neighborhood. ( in this analogy, I am not talking about a mistaken case of a kid that made some poor choices but is really a kid that can grow up to be "normal"...I am talking about you seeing behaviors that can lead to no doubt whatsoever, that this kid has all the makings of a serial killer). If you believe this to be true, and you have the education, the background, and the insights to read such things correctly, then you have a duty to attempt to prevent your child's death, or those of some other neighbor's. If you don't have this background, your duty is to find someone that does, and get their read on this.
Consideration of this poor kid's future , after the neighborhood meeting on him, is not the priority, any more than worrying about the future of a kid that robs and kills in the burglary, goes to jail, and because of jail, may not have a nice future shot at life....the past actions of the kid prevent this concern from being considered, as it is overshadowed by concern for your own child or the children of neighbors.

This kid that killed the octopus, and bragged about it having eggs, and that he would be doing this daily, purposely showed himself as someone without a conscience, or remorse for a bad act. It also shows a person that enjoys killing for the sake of killing, and likes people to see his handiwork.
We don't know enough about this kid to know for certain if he will become a serial killer, or if he will become a loving teacher some day. Each of us will need to "stereotype" him, to place him in a place in our minds we use to determine who is safe, who is not, who we need to look out for.
I think Bob did what had to be done, given the behavior of the kid. Bob had a duty to the local dive community, and a duty to the environment.
The kid sounds like he needs help, may be beyond it, but at least now, maybe someone will be aware that he needs help, and maybe someone will help him...Maybe it is not too late for him to learn appropriate social behaviors.
 
How so?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You can't see it? Dude, I understand how you feel about the GPO, but if you ever went to every dive shop in my city and got me banned from getting fills because I was doing something legal that you didn't like, I would get a lawyer and own your rear and every dive shop the joined in. When it was all said and done I'd own my own boat and compressor and a nice scuba trust fund to last me for the rest of your life.

Personally I can't see how this thread is oven on SB. It is a blatant example of REAL LIFE harassment, stalking, bullying.
 
Personally I can't see how this thread is oven on SB. It is a blatant example of REAL LIFE harassment, stalking, bullying.

Chrpai, I tend to agree with you more often than not, but not on this.

My congressman growing up was Charlie Wilson. It turned out there was a lot none of us knew about him. One of the things that really struck me though was the story of how he entered politics-- his neighbor when he was a kid, who was some local politician, killed his dog by feeding it ground glass. The second thing young Charlie did in revenge, was to the make shuttle runs back and forth to the poor parts of his town on election day, load up as many people as wanted to vote in his truck, and then tell them what the guy did as they were going in. The guy lost by a landslide.

If someone were going from dive shop to dive shop threatening the owners there if they don't stop supplying gas to the kid, that would be harassment. On the other hand, if someone widely relates the actions and attitude of one who lives among them, and then lets people make their own decision about whether to encourage or discourage the person's behavior, then to me that's a social system at work.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom