Advanced Divers too soon?..

[Tigerman]

Well, that was kinda my point. I obviously rather go with experience over card..
Experience AND card would be better, but given the choice, experience definetly wins.

 

[irishsquid]

...Just to be clear, I'm not claiming this is true in every case, just that it could be and that having 1,000 dives under your belt doesn't automatically guarantee a better or safer diver. And, I totally agree that a master diver with 1,000 dives in his log book is for sure going to be a better diver than a master diver with 51 dives.
Akimbo was complaining about the "master diver" moniker not reflecting the experience of the diver, but it doesn't claim to. It only relates to being at the top of the training tree (for non professionals), not experience.
This is not unique to scuba diving, it is just common sense. The same idea can be applied to any other activity. For example, I have been skiing for about 20 years with only a couple of lessons at the start but I am sure that a newcomer with 2 months of proper coaching could easily ski faster, better and safer than me. On the same basis I contend that a 1,000 dive OW diver is not automatically a better, safer diver than a 51 dive master diver.

Basically true! 1000 dives doesn't automatically make one a safer or better diver, but; generally I would go with that assumption. I would think one wouldn't get to 1000 dives without learning a thing or 2. I see folks I work with who come straight from Tech Schools with a Certification in "Motor/Motion Controls, Industrial Electrical, Industrial Electronics, etc." and the majority think they are "experts or automatically" better or more qualified than the techs I have without a Cert who have been doing the job for 10yrs. or more, and yet, they really don't even understand Ohm's Law. That is generally what I have experienced with CCard holders in diving.

...The reality is divers who lack the understanding of why they should not dive deeper, on wrecks, in caves, etc are more likely to do really stupid things.

Just keep in mind, "Advanced Open Water", there is nothing advanced about it. It is really a OW2, an extension of the basic OW class. Taking AOW after OW isn't a problem. BUT thinking you are an advanced diver after completing AOW is the real problem

Well, that was kinda my point. I obviously rather go with experience over card..
Experience AND card would be better, but given the choice, experience definetly wins.

Agree, see the above. Advanced certs can definately be a plus toward training and learning when used as a step toward betterment. "I am now an expert, know it ALL, and there is nothing more I need" is what I have experienced with a lot of divers I've met, unfortunately. I think most SB members understand Certs are just a step in further training, but; there is a huge population of divers who are not SB members and they believe they have the skills based on THE CARD. The A&I forum seems to bear this out IMHO.

 

[TSandM]

Would it sit better, if the classes were called OW2 (AOW) and Diving Safety and Salvage (Rescue)?

As someone who has DMed a bunch of classes over the last few years, I wish more divers would do OW, maybe a handful of dives (and buy their own gear!) and then go straight into AOW. Most people haven't really "mastered" skills in our cold, murky water, right out of OW. They could benefit from some more time in the water with an instructor, and some feedback on what they are doing. Swimming with the hands is much easier to unlearn at the beginning, than it is six months and a couple dozen dives later!

We had the pleasure of doing a unique class for some high school students a year or so ago. It was basically a combination of OW and AOW, with nine total dives, of which the last two were off a charter boat. It was fun. Not all the students completed the sequence, for a variety of reasons, but the ones who did had what I think was really a solid toehold on Puget Sound diving. They weren't experts, or "advanced divers", by any stretch of the imagination, but they were stronger and more confident than anyone gets after just four OW dives here.

I dive a lot locally, and I see a lot of other divers. I see a lot of poor buoyancy control, poor trim, poor buddy awareness and positioning, inefficient kicking, and hand-waving. I can't help but think that some of these bad habits wouldn't sink roots if someone had more instructor input early on.

But polished skills do not a diver make -- as a friend of mine told me, years ago, GUE Fundamentals (which seriously polishes skills) can make a 25 dive diver LOOK like a 100 dive diver, but they still AREN'T a 100 dive diver. (Although, as I type this, I have to grin -- a 100 dive diver is still a novice, looking back from seven years later.) Experience teaches lessons than one simply doesn't get from classes -- only experience can teach you that the water doesn't care, and that if you misjudge, you'll get spanked, every time. Only experience can teach you that you should always slant the odds in your favor . . . if you are pushing your limits in one area, make sure the others are more than well covered! And only experience can teach you that there is a point where, no matter what the dive is, it needs to be called then and there. THAT's what makes an "advanced" diver. The classes are misnamed, but they serve their purpose in a world where an "active diver" does 12 dives a year.

 

[supergaijin]

pre-1980 learning to dive was a 'course' that happened over many weeks/months. AFAIK people got together in the weekends for training as most trainers had a normal day job.

OW+AOW+Resc will take how many weekends?

4 weekends for OW?
2 for AOW?
2 for Resc?

That is a huge time commitment for some people- I can't guess how many people dropped out because they lost motivation or couldn't come one weekend etc. and were left out.

Recreational diving agencies such as PADI standardised the training and cut it up in to little bite sized chunks that could be taken at different times of year and in different locations.

To make it sound more attractive they made OW II in to Advanced OW as a marketing strategy. It works btw.

Is it too soon to go straight from OW to AOW? It really depends. IME most divers aren't yet proficient with their basic skills, to start going deeper than 3ata straight after OW. A forward-thinking instructor can also help the transition by training the diver with AOW in mind from the get go. Some instructors are working only enough ust to get the diver certified.

Does having 25 dives make one ready? Not necessarily. Some divers just shouldn't be diving deep (and this is the main reason people take AOW).

If the diver in question is learning as they dive and has regular exposure to diving and divers, then they are more likely to be ready for more 'advanced' diving.

One flag for me is to do OW on a week long vacation, then sign up for AOW at the beginning of the next vacation- there really needs to be some remedial work done in most cases IME. In any case, I don't sign people up for AOW without seeing them dive first- then we can both make an informed decision.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

... In any case, I don't sign people up for AOW without seeing them dive first- then we can both make an informed decision.

I don't have a problem with that policy, but it could be a problem for some students. IF they have some buddies and some easy, local venue to practice diving "on their own" ... then I think it is fine if they want to wait to take an advanced class.

However, what about people he can't or won't dive on their own or want to go on a vacation and dive soon?? Unless these people are an incredible cluster, I think taking thm through AOW and then telling them they should seek more practice is the lesser of two evils...

In fact, when I was a DM on a charter boat, I did many more "surface rescues" on AOW than OW students. One particular dive shop, (Diver Supply) would bring these AOW students to dive in the ocean and it was not unusual for them to step off the boat, the water hits their lips and they freak out. It was quite obvious to me that it had been a long time since their OW training and classes and they had forgotten nearly everything.... It was situations like this (which I witnessed over and over again) lead me to believe that going straight from Ow to AOW is better than long breaks between classes.

 

[New Scuba Guy]

I've been very fortunate in the short couple years since I've embraced the sport of Scuba Diving that many of the buddies I've gone diving with were Instructors, Rescue Divers, Dive Masters, etc. with anywhere from 300-5000+ dives to their credit. The first thing I always tell them is that I'm a student everyday in diving as in life and that they should feel free to critique me, let me know where I need work or improvement. It's easier sometimes to learn good habits than to unlearn bad ones. I've learned from every one of these men and women with whom I had the pleasure of sharing the watery world. I enjoy diving with these people and I've also had the fortune of diving with others of various experience levels and I learn from them also, but a lot of times what not to do rather than what to do. I guess I'm just getting back on the soapbox and preaching the message that the best way to improve as a diver is...keep diving.

 

[Akimbo]

…In fact, when I was a DM on a charter boat, I did many more "surface rescues" on AOW than OW students.,.

Just curious, were these full-blown “save them before someone dies rescues” or run of the mill “too freaked out to swim rescues”? Did you see many of them come back onboard or did they sell their gear and go elsewhere?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Just curious, were these full-blown “save them before someone dies rescues” or run of the mill “too freaked out to swim rescues”? Did you see many of them come back onboard or did they sell their gear and go elsewhere?

It was just the usual freaking out on the surface... jump in, grab them, someody throws a rope and we get hauled back in..Don't remember them even aspirating any water...just freaking out.. I don't know what would happen with them afterward really.

 

[live_2_dive]

It was just the usual freaking out on the surface... jump in, grab them, someody throws a rope and we get hauled back in..Don't remember them even aspirating any water...just freaking out.. I don't know what would happen with them afterward really.

WHY would you immediately jump in the water for someone that isn't in a life threatening situation?! Putting the DM/Rescue diver in the water is that last thing that should happen during a rescue, no matter if it's a full blown rescue or just calming someone down. It instantly adds volatility to a situation that doesn't need any more.

If someone is "freaking out" on the surface, I would suggest talking to them from the boat, if there are divers on the surface in the water (who are trained to deal with panicked divers) have them approach the diver, but unless they are in a situation where your presence in the water is required I would definitely not just jump in the water without a very good reason


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PADI Rescue/DM 09100Z7445
Dr Dive/Wet Dream/Sea Cobra/Y-Knot

Diving is my passion...I live to dive!

 

[Tigerman]

Leaving a panicked divers fate to paying customers who may or may not perform a successful rescue, while youre standing on the deck waiting for the panicked diver to either sink, calm down or be rescued by said paying customer?

Does NOT sound like a brilliant plan to me - not from neither a PR nor a liability viewpoint..
"Could you as the defendant please state what you did while the customer in your charge drowned?"
"I stood on the deck waiting for the situation to warrant me being in the water"